Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[mike70]

I'm not taking umbridge with the arguments here; I am just stating this in advance of a simple truth:

Nearly all audio dealerships in the last 60 years have relied on audition; quite literally have stayed in business based on perceived sound quality rather than how the equipment measured, even when the customer came in based on specs he had seen in print. Auditions are also what drives the audio shows like AXPONA (the largest home audio show in the US) or the Munich show (which is the largest audio show worldwide).

Eureka ... You have discovered marketing.

Yes, but that is what we don't value here in ASR . Thousands more for the same audible results? Or even worst engineering?
Not for me.

 

[MattHooper]

Eureka ... You have discovered marketing.

Yes, but that is what we don't value here in ASR . Thousands more for the same audible results? Or even worst engineering?
Not for me.

There’s that ASR cynicism again. You might be speaking for some but not all ASR members in ruling out the worth of audio stores.

It doesn’t have to be all about marketing. We had (and still do to a degree) numerous Audio stores in our city. I was so appreciative that I could actually go in and hear some of the speakers I’d read about and become interest in. Or I could also discover new speakers. I own some great speakers due to the ability to audition them in stores.

Everything outside ASR does not reduce to being a dupe for marketing.

 

[mike70]

There’s that ASR cynicism again. You might be speaking for some but not all ASR members in ruling out the worth of audio stores.

It doesn’t have to be all about marketing. We had (and still do to a degree) numerous Audio stores in our city. I was so appreciative that I could actually go in and hear some of the speakers I’d read about and become interest in. Or I could also discover new speakers. I own some great speakers due to the ability to audition them in stores.

Everything outside ASR does not reduce to being a dupe for marketing.

hey, easy man

the original post talked about evaluating audio "based on perceived sound quality rather than how the equipment measured" ... ?
don't you think that is marketing at pure level?

please, read again the posts,maybe let some time to flow if you're stressed with something and then let me know if i'm cynic

 

[MattHooper]

Much obliged! Lost it there. I’ve done some deep breathing, sipped some chamomile tea, and now I’ve got my feet on the ground again.

hey, easy man

the original post talked about evaluating audio "based on perceived sound quality rather than how the equipment measured" ... ?
don't you think that is marketing at pure level?

please, read again the posts,maybe let some time to flow if you're stressed with something and then let me know if i'm cynic

Maybe I’m missing your point, but…to the idea that audiophiles should get head deep in measurements, Atmosphere was simply pointing out that audio dealers tended to survive based on allowing customers to judge loudspeakers for themselves by listening.
And that, even if they were aware of specs or measurements, their customers tended to ultimately decide based on listening to the speakers themselves.

What exactly is wrong with that? And what does it have to do strictly with marketing?

I remember a dealership I used to visit where he had all sorts of rotating gear set up that anybody could listen to. I heard a few speakers there that I wasn’t familiar with at all, some of them before he even told me what they were. But I was just blown away by the sound. And I ended up with a couple of those loudspeakers in my own listening room…. and they blew me away with the same characteristics I initially heard in the store.

 

[Petrushka]

I would advise everyone to acoustically measure their system, ‘golden ears’ not required.
Keith

I’ve used HouseCurve on my systems. Not precise, but it seems to confirm subjective impressions.

The really interesting thing is that different mic locations give radically different curves, but subjectively, it doesn’t sound that different as you move about.

 

[Newman]

I'm not taking umbridge with the arguments here; I am just stating this in advance of a simple truth:

Nearly all audio dealerships in the last 60 years have relied on audition; quite literally have stayed in business based on perceived sound quality rather than how the equipment measured, even when the customer came in based on specs he had seen in print. Auditions are also what drives the audio shows like AXPONA (the largest home audio show in the US) or the Munich show (which is the largest audio show worldwide).

It is indeed a simple truth, but it is misleading to say it was "based on perceived sound quality" if sighted listening is the method of auditioning (which it almost always was).

Instead, auditions are largely an opportunity for dealerships to groom the buyer in many ways: telling them about 'better' brands; telling them about exclusive features, and what special sonic attributes they bring; telling them about what sound quality differences to expect; swapping out components without level matching (or with rough tweak-the-dial adjustments that would probably favour the pricey stuff, even unconsciously); offering a deal on a component that means the buyer gets "sound quality way above their price point", etc.

Eureka ... You have discovered marketing.

and salesmanship

... that is what we don't value here in ASR . Thousands more for the same audible results? Or even worst engineering?
Not for me.

Yes, my life as an audiophile mixing with other audiophiles has sometimes surprised me with the large sums many audiophiles are willing to spend in the firm conviction that their high spending will gain them new levels of sound quality. If these guys really did controlled listening auditions they probably would never have spent what they did. Yes, even with speakers.

 

[pablolie]

How did the $ spend get involved in a discussion about the principle of measurements being a major factor in decision making for audiophiles?

 

[mike70]

Much obliged! Lost it there. I’ve done some deep breathing, sipped some chamomile tea, and now I’ve got my feet on the ground again.



Maybe I’m missing your point, but…to the idea that audiophiles should get head deep in measurements, Atmosphere was simply pointing out that audio dealers tended to survive based on allowing customers to judge loudspeakers for themselves by listening.
And that, even if they were aware of specs or measurements, their customers tended to ultimately decide based on listening to the speakers themselves.

What exactly is wrong with that? And what does it have to do strictly with marketing?

I remember a dealership I used to visit where he had all sorts of rotating gear set up that anybody could listen to. I heard a few speakers there that I wasn’t familiar with at all, some of them before he even told me what they were. But I was just blown away by the sound. And I ended up with a couple of those loudspeakers in my own listening room…. and they blew me away with the same characteristics I initially heard in the store.

@Newman answered perfectly

 

[mike70]

How did the $ spend get involved in a discussion about the principle of measurements being a major factor in decision making for audiophiles?

It's not. And that's a fact.
ASR opened my eyes years ago and now I don't care the price or how it sounds in a dealer room, I wait for third part measurements (like ASR, Erin, Archimago, etc).
I decide based on that, objective data.
And many people here does it.
In other way, I'll prefer to read stereophile.

 

[Holmz]

It's not. And that's a fact.
ASR opened my eyes years ago and now I don't care the price or how it sounds in a dealer room, I wait for third part measurements (like ASR, Erin, Archimago, etc).
I decide based on that, objective data.
And many people here does it.
In other way, I'll prefer to read stereophile.

It is sounding a lot like religion… Start out with Stereophile (Judaism) and switch as the other prophets show leadership... (Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, etc.)

In the end the stereos are just portals into some way to get joy etc.
In the olden days a lot more people played instruments and could provide some that at home.
No they/we need to be entertained, rather than do the entertaining.

 

[MattHooper]

@Newman answered perfectly

Not really. It didn’t address my question to you nor did it address my response to you.

You seemed to dismiss the worth of audio stores as only about “ marketing” and not, as Atmosphere pointed out, an opportunity for audiophiles to audition gear. I replied giving you some of my experience of the type of value I got out of those stores.

Are some audio salesmen all about “getting that sale today” and using manipulation techniques? Sure of course. No doubt we’ve all experienced that. I’ve got some ridiculous stories in that regard.

But I found it did not take much effort to winnow out the stores and salesman who didn’t take that approach. I would say that probably the majority of high end stores I frequented were run by people who were really chill, and were happy to let me hear whatever I was interested in.

Was there some salesman patter still at points? Sure. So what? I’m not a robot, they aren’t controlling me forcing me to buy, I can take or leave what they have to say, and listen to what I’m interested in myself.
I’m sure my experience is not that unusual.

 

[Mart68]

. I would say that probably the majority of high end stores I frequented were run by people who were really chill, and were happy to let me hear whatever I was interested in.

Isn't that just 'soft sell'? It's a sales technique just the same as the hard sell.

Also a lot of audiophiles sell it to themselves anyway. They're just wanting to be gently talked into it. They didn't go to into the dealership to get out of the rain.

 

[goryu]

I believe the basic premise is flawed, i.e., because some piece of gear sounds "good" or "bad" in a shop audition means it will sound the same in one's home. It has been said countless times that the room plays a major role in the reproduction of sound...

 

[rdenney]

Isn't that just 'soft sell'? It's a sales technique just the same as the hard sell.

Also a lot of audiophiles sell it to themselves anyway. They're just wanting to be gently talked into it. They didn't go to into the dealership to get out of the rain.

I think we need not be too cynical about people who sell things. We'd all be in a world of hurt without them. But the really good salespeople believe their stories, and convey that belief. The salespeople who see all customers as "marks" and think the products worthless may be effective for a little while with credulous newbies but by my observation do not sustain high regard (read: repeat customers and long-term customer relationships).

Yes, a lot of audio buyers make themselves easy customers, but that doesn't mean the people selling two them aren't earnest about what they are selling.

In any case, I have no issue with people selling unnecessarily expensive stuff to those who want to buy it, as long as they don't do so fraudulently. But the placebo effect works for salespeople as much as for their customers. Also, the buying and owning experience involves a lot more than simply how the product sounds.

It's the movie Ruthless People that has created this image (acted by Judge Reinhold just following his usual on-screen persona) of the meek and quietly honest salesperson as reading wisely into the buyer's life to determine how much money they should be spending versus how much money they are prepared to spend. Frankly, when I go to look at something in a store, I don't need a salesperson-as-babysitter trying to oversee my finances. The only alternative that we are presented to that model of salesperson-as-nanny is the angry, cynical, and ruthless Judge Reinhold selling the Dominator MX ("Who cares if it's as big as a Subaru and costs as much?!") to the working-class kid with the pregnant wife.

He was lampooning the worst aspects of the typical 70's stereo shop as we remember them, though there were certainly shops even in the 70's that transcended this stereotype. But there is a middle ground that serves people who are decidedly not working-class kids. Those salespeople believe in their product--and may also be deluded by unintentional bias or disregard for measured performance--but they also believe it's the responsibility of the customer to set their own boundaries. I don't hold either against them--it's my responsibility as a customer to perform my own due diligence and to assess my own budget.

But I draw the line at lies told by those who know better, or who claim expertise that means they should know better.

Rick "whose best friend worked at Pacific Stereo back in the day and saw it all" Denney

 

[rdenney]

I believe the basic premise is flawed, i.e., because some piece of gear sounds "good" or "bad" in a shop audition means it will sound the same in one's home. It has been said countless times that the room plays a major role in the reproduction of sound...

Yes, but something that sounds bad in the store will probably not improve much in my room. But good audio retailers these days have audition rooms that are sized and furnished to be like residential spaces, so even if they are not the same they will either be similar or can be made to be similar.

Listening comparisons only really applies to speakers, of course (and turntables, for those pursuing the ability to play obsolete media). The electronics these days are usually operated within their linear range and are indistinguishable from each other in controlled testing. Comparisons of electronics in the store are usually too careless--particularly regarding level matching--to be informative.

But it's only in a store where I can see if the operating features and aesthetics of identical-sounding electronics will attain my objectives that extend beyond how it sounds.

Rick "lots of experience buying things" Denney

 

[mike70]

It is sounding a lot like religion… Start out with Stereophile (Judaism) and switch as the other prophets show leadership... (Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, etc.)

In the end the stereos are just portals into some way to get joy etc.
In the olden days a lot more people played instruments and could provide some that at home.
No they/we need to be entertained, rather than do the entertaining.

it's ok ... but we need to put in a context, without context anything can be right or wrong at the same time. Even math have "hypothesis" to theorems

i'm talking about an objective audiophile.
that kind of audiophile gives absolute importance to the real performance of an audio component over anything else (price / looks / whatever)
you don't need a salesman to check for the objective performance, at all, you need objective solid third part reviewers (like Amir)

if we go to the "human touch" in audio, well, sky's the limit and we can talk till the end of the world about it.
so, context is everything, we're not in different corners to fight ... we're simply talking about different ways to face the hobby. that's all.

and i think i already talk to much about it, i'm closing my opinion on this.

 

[Holmz]

it's ok ... but we need to put in a context, without context anything can be right or wrong at the same time. Even math have "hypothesis" to theorems

i'm talking about an objective audiophile.
that kind of audiophile gives absolute importance to the real performance of an audio component over anything else (price / looks / whatever)
you don't need a salesman to check for the objective performance, at all, you need objective solid third part reviewers (like Amir)

if we go to the "human touch" in audio, well, sky's the limit and we can talk till the end of the world about it.
so, context is everything, we're not in different corners to fight ... we're simply talking about different ways to face the hobby. that's all.

and i think i already talk to much about it, i'm closing my opinion on this.

^All good^, but the focus on A, B or C sort of loses the spirit of what the music may be trying to convey.

 

[Mart68]

I think we need not be too cynical about people who sell things. We'd all be in a world of hurt without them. But the really good salespeople believe their stories, and convey that belief. The salespeople who see all customers as "marks" and think the products worthless may be effective for a little while with credulous newbies but by my observation do not sustain high regard (read: repeat customers and long-term customer relationships).

Not at all cynical. I spent years in sales myself, albeit not hi-fi.

'Cynic' is what an idealist calls a realist.

It's just a lot of people say about their hi-fi dealer 'He's like a friend, he never tries to sell to me.' Without realising that is because he's a very good salesman.

If they do walk out without buying is the salesman disappointed? You bet he is!

 

[rdenney]

Not at all cynical. I spent years in sales myself, albeit not hi-fi.

'Cynic' is what an idealist calls a realist.

It's just a lot of people say about their hi-fi dealer 'He's like a friend, he never tries to sell to me.' Without realising that is because he's a very good salesman.

If they do walk out without buying is the salesman disappointed? You bet he is!

Of course, but my point is that some seem to treat the sale process as an expression of evil through and through, corrupt to its core simply because the sales guy wants to close the sale. It's possible for a sales guy to be friendly as a sales tactic, disappointed if the sale falls through, interested in the well-being of the buyer, and a believer in what he sells all at the same time.

I see the same thing with watch salespeople, which is far more about the sales relationship than most audio sales. There are some watch salespeople who turn off any attempt on my part to discuss history or technical aspects of the movement, about both of which I am probably much more expert than the salesperson. But some salespeople are also enthusiasts, and enjoy talking about what they are selling just because of that. Of course, they are also disappointed if no sale occurs, and I'm scrupulous to watch as carefully as they do for the arrival of a customer with higher potential than I have on that day, but I've had salespeople for the brand I collect ask me to come in and help train their new salespeople, too, just because what they learned in our over-the-counter conversations helped them close sales with other customers. But some of those salespeople suck, too. I had one guy at a higher-end store tell me the watch I was looking at was a "grown-up" watch compared to the watch I was wearing (which was a premium watch from a brand they didn't sell). That was ironic given that the brand I was wearing actually made the watches for the brand I was looking at for about 20 years in the not-too-distant past. I nodded, and then walked out. I bought that watch from someone else.

Rick "most audio salespeople are not electrical engineers" Denney

 

[voodooless]

Just always remember that you’re in the shop to make yourself happy, not the sales people.