Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[RickS]

Actually this requirement raised my curiosity, what constitutes good curation of a thread on ASR that one 'owns'?

I guess when one starts a thread, if it is me, I kind of think, "let it roll", except for reporting obvious personal attacks. But now I'm thinking, should the owner be more controlling than that? Should he or she, for example:-

1. Constantly monitor posts for adherence to the original topic, and ask the mods to move or delete any drift?
2. Answer every question raised?
3. Debate every on-topic issue?
4. Ask mods to delete posts that are repetitious of earlier parts of the thread? (streamlining)
5. Ask mods to help control debates, eg by cutting short persistent arguing of a point? (this would be rather tricky, as some posters might simply be persistently correcting wrong posts by others who won't stop)
6. Tell mods to close the thread when he or she has heard enough?
7. Tell mods to delete the whole thread when not happy with the direction it took?

Most of the above is observed in the breach by owners of ASR threads, AFAICT.

I'm genuinely curation-ious! After all, one assumes that mods and members would all be happier if thread owners were doing a good job of curating their threads, and in a way that makes the mods and Amir happy.

cheers

How does the owner of a thread have any more influence than any other member on how it progresses. He has no way to control what other members post in reply to it.

How am I able to "curate" a thread I started?

See AudioNaut’s thread for my initial response. Thanks!

 

[danadam]

Is there a TLDR? I can't read 770 pages lol

You've already asked

Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Because someone online has questions.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[RickS]

At face value, thought this thread might be interesting for the right member to manage. As it is a rather challenging orphan, going to give it some rehab and then will revisit who manages the OP.

 

[Pearljam5000]

You've already asked

Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Because someone online has questions.

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm senile

 

[Kain]

In ASR's Meyer Sound Amie review, the measurements were not exactly perfect but they were good. However, in the conclusion, Amir stated that they sounded pretty much perfect and as good as he could ever imagine or want.

In ASR's JBL 705P review, Amir compared it to the JBL 305P. Both have great measurements but Amir stated that the 705P made the 305P sound flattish and boring while the 705P was a delight to listen to.

Lastly, the Genelec 8361A has pretty much perfect measurements but there have been numerous reports of people saying that the Genelec S360A (which does not have "perfect" measurements) sounds better (especially in the high frequencies).

Do measurements really tell you everything?

 

[Ziltoe]

Measuremts tells a lot, and after that, it's upon you what you are going to make out of that. What ever comes after the measuremets, i.e. so called "conclusions" it's just a preference of the one who did the measuremts. It's quit simple.

Do measurements really tell you everything?​

Yes! Just look at them and be happy having people conducting such at a very high level, after that, go to your favourite B&W [or other] dealer and talk about?

 

[Matt_Holland]

Do measurements really tell you everything?

Yes. If you make ALL the measurements.

 

[kemmler3D]

Do measurements really tell you everything?

Yes, but understanding how they relate to your personal subjective experience can be hard, especially when it comes to nuanced differences between good speakers.

Like if I told you the exact concentration of every chemical in your glass of beer, you would have "everything". But understanding how it tastes based on that information is another story.

Going down the checklist of "good" measurements for a speaker lets you weed out the losers and narrow down on some winners. Flat on-axis, smooth off-axis, low distortion, good bass extension, etc.

But having a clear sense of how all that interacts simultaneously to produce a specific subjective impression is not trivial. Take your current speakers and choose one of the following: 10Hz lower bass extension, 10 degrees wider dispersion, 10% lower distortion or 10dB more headroom. Make sure you pick the one that will have the greatest total effect on your experience of listening to music. Then, tell me (with certainty) how it will subjectively sound after you make that change.

Not easy, see what I mean?

 

[Keith_W]

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com

May I request that in the future, if a question like this is asked and a reply made to point the OP to the correct thread, the ASR member could state in the reply "I have reported this thread to a moderator requesting thread merger" so that the rest of us know not to report it? I have reported the thread, hopefully poor @RickS hasn't received a dozen reports.

 

[Karmacoma]

An objective stance doesn't tell you everything about a subjective stance, no.

 

[BlueMeanie]

You know, as someone with only limited knowledge on electronics and psycho acoustics it didn't seem all that strange to me that there might be something in a rather messy signal like music that is difficult to spot in measurements but makes a noticeable difference to our perception.

But then, such an effect could be shown in double blind tests, and I never found anything like that.

Also, while reading reviews and forums I found a lack of consistency, one person described a certain component as thin and bright, somebody else called it warm. If there was some real and repeatable effect, shouldn't listeners impressions be somewhat similar?

And than there are the people who clearly hear the difference from power cables, fuses, digital connectors, where there simply is no way this could work.

So, unless someone has some good test data or at least a good hypothesis for the nature of the effect that escapes current measurements, I'll stick with my current setup.

 

[NicC]

Hi everyone,
As I'm relatively new here, I hope you’ll forgive me if some of my questions come across as basic—or occasionally even a little ‘inflammatory.’ That’s definitely not my intention.

After reading a Stereophile article on cables (discussed in another thread), and some of the follow-up comments—particularly one criticising the so-called 'measurement people'—I started wondering: in which types of equipment are measurements most meaningful?

Has any gear ever measured one way but sounded completely different in practice?

I ask because if measurements have, say, a 99.9% success rate in predicting real-world performance (I made this number up), why would some people still dismiss the science? Is it perhaps because they’ve owned something that measured poorly but sounded fantastic to them? I vaguely recall a test on an expensive pair of HiFiMAN headphones being a bit controversial—something about distortion at high volume levels, if I remember right.

Does the non-measurement ‘mantra’ mean that the subjective listening experience is all that matters? Or are there measurement values that simply aren’t audible?

I'm just trying to expand my understanding—not looking to stir the pot or critique any particular gear. I'm genuinely curious about the relationship between measurements, gear, human hearing, and why some people spurn the science. Is it as simple as some people like pineapple on their pizza and others don't?

 

[Mort]

That depends on how useful measuring measurements is.

 

[JSmith]

Measurements are more than useful... want to try this epic thread?

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[NicC]

Measurements are more than useful... want to try this epic thread?

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

Ah thanks JSmith. I actually looked for something like this before I posted. We don't need my post. I should probably delete, yes?

 

[Brian Hall]

Measurements are very important. The people that don't like measurements are those who buy or sell very expensive items that are objectively worse than or at best close to reasonably priced items.

If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist.

 

[NicC]

Oh my gosh - 759 pages in Amir's master thread! I'll be here for ages

 

[JSmith]

Oh my gosh - 759 pages in Amir's master thread! I'll be here for ages

Yeah it's become a bit of a monster... recently split into 2 parts as well;

Are Measurements Everything or Nothing? (older content)

Thread is relocated off-topic review content but is older and so is posted here to prevent confusion in Master thread...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Anyway that's in General Audio Discussions.

I gather this thread is specific to speaker measurements?


JSmith

 

[DVDdoug]

Most "audiophiles" are nuts!

And most of the guys that don't believe in measurements also don't believe in blind listening tests.

 

[NicC]

I guess in my mind, if you do enough tests, with the same measuring equipment, performed the same way, and then verify said measurements by human ear, you can get a very accurate picture that, 'the science don't lie'. I realise it's not for some though Maybe it is the money spent that determines (for them) how something sounds - which is why I wanted to know if much equipment has bucked the trend - whether they have a point. I'll get started on the 759 pages...