Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Doodski]

the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Where did you get this assertion from?

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

It’s not exactly a hit-and-run. I find it interesting that the results don’t quite compare to my actual experience with the gear I tested. Maybe I don’t know what good sound quality is—but I don’t believe that. I’ve tried so-called “perfect-measuring” gear, and more often than not, it sounded lifeless, without soul. That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

Really, you mustn't worry about it. You enjoy your own kit. I, and presumably most people here, will enjoy ours.
If in general we end up spending less money than you do, that is our good fortune.

 

[Mart68]

It’s not exactly a hit-and-run. I find it interesting that the results don’t quite compare to my actual experience with the gear I tested. Maybe I don’t know what good sound quality is—but I don’t believe that. I’ve tried so-called “perfect-measuring” gear, and more often than not, it sounded lifeless, without soul. That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

Your Naim unit you mentioned measures well within the bounds of 'transparent' - it's not doing anything the Topping amp doesn't - and vice versa.

You have to bear in mind that the measurements shown here for DACs and amps are really only for the assessment of engineering quality. Once you're beyond the threshold of hearing - which is the vast majority of electronics - there's no further gain - and no real difference in sound.

If you do a blind test you'll discover this for yourself.

 

[BeeKay]

On the other hand, I own the Naim Uniti Atom HE, which, to my ears, sounds miles ahead of the Topping. The comparison isn’t even close—it would be laughable to put Naim alongside a brand like Topping, which is essentially a budget audio manufacturer from China.

I would not be too forgiving after such a statement.

 

[voodooless]

That’s my real experience, not just something on paper

Yes, it is; nobody doubts that! But not all of our experiences are grounded in real, tangible things. Much is made up of our biases.

especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

They have if you account for said biases. And even with biases, things can be fairly predictable, as shown by your responses: the audio industry's marketing departments once again do an excellent job brainwashing consumers into buying anything they throw at them under the guise of; "just listen".

 

[Sernyl]

It’s not exactly a hit-and-run. I find it interesting that the results don’t quite compare to my actual experience with the gear I tested. Maybe I don’t know what good sound quality is—but I don’t believe that. I’ve tried so-called “perfect-measuring” gear, and more often than not, it sounded lifeless, without soul. That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

"Soul" could be the keyword.
In this mind, what you expect to hear is very personal, and depends on many factors.
Among them : hifi history (analog era ? ), musical education, age (ears), setup, and of course personal taste.
I would add some degree of idealization, i.e. more simply one's dreams.
On the other side, a performing system may reveal annoying "defects" of a recording, and (IMHO) may have too much dynamics for domestic listening.
YMMV, as usual.
Regards,

 

[BDWoody]

It’s not exactly a hit-and-run. I find it interesting that the results don’t quite compare to my actual experience with the gear I tested.

When you say tested, do you mean that you listened to it? Did you set up any kind of controlled (blind, levels matched, enough trials to be meaningful, etc) testing?

Maybe I don’t know what good sound quality is—but I don’t believe that.

It's more likely that you don't know how to do a meaningful comparison that isn't polluted by very natural bias.

That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

How much do you know about the measurements done and measurement tools used or electronics in general? Or, is it just that you don't really understand them, so they must be bad and misleading?

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

I know exactly what you mean. People come here every day saying almost exactly the same uninformed, butthurt based nonsense. Does get old.

 

[KLi]

I would consider myself an objectivist. I rely on the measurements Amirm and others provide and buy the equipment accordingly. But there is one thing I am totally subjective: Although some devices like DACs seems to be terrific (Cord Mojo and similar), I could not, for the life of me, buy one of those, because they look so cheap and plasticly. I'd rather buy a good looking device, even if it is not that good (but still good enough of course). In this regard subjectivism wins.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

I would consider myself an objectivist. I rely on the measurements Amirm and others provide and buy the equipment accordingly. But there is one thing I am totally subjective: Although some devices like DACs seems to be terrific (Cord Mojo and similar), I could not, for the life of me, buy one of those, because they look so cheap and plasticly. I'd rather buy a good looking device, even if it is not that good (but still good enough of course). In this regard subjectivism wins.

Absolutely your choice. I don't think my Qutest looks that plasticky, or cheap.
Of course, that is my subjective opinion.

 

[DLegendary0ne]

It’s not exactly a hit-and-run. I find it interesting that the results don’t quite compare to my actual experience with the gear I tested. Maybe I don’t know what good sound quality is—but I don’t believe that. I’ve tried so-called “perfect-measuring” gear, and more often than not, it sounded lifeless, without soul. That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

I think what you may be experiencing is the gear not meeting what you expect it to sound like. Perhaps because you're used to a certain sound that's very different from what is engineered very well.

If your amp sounds soul-less, it might just be reflecting how soulless your headphones or speakers are. The amps are doing their job correctly. You can know this because they measure well - which is why this site is so helpful. It took me some time to understand this.

So if I want a more relaxing sound, I get headphones/speakers that naturally have that quality. Once I get used to them (because that always takes time), it really makes a difference.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

It's the human being that's the source of the false .., generally always is one way or another.

That's where one should look first! At their own faulty self's.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

I know exactly what you mean. People come here every day saying almost exactly the same uninformed, butthurt based nonsense. Does get old.

Could be worse you could be on a night out with me .., I could however guarantee some novel experiences.

Yes the same things on ASR come round , again and again from all sides, it's incredibly dull . There is however some fantastic dialogue, a quick look in the stereo sub thread might soothe the soul .

 

[MatrixS2000]

Come on, listen to music—not just measure it, for god’s sake! Numbers won’t give you the feeling of a song.

Come on - why would anyone want to measure something if they are not interested in what they are measuring it for?

This is like saying you would measure a lap time but are not interested in racing.

People don’t do things they are not interested in. Simple as that.

That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Argh - the same old garbage. How did the music you're enjoying make its way onto whichever format you are listening to it on? It all comes down to careful measurement and recording processes that ensure quality playback. Dismissing the accuracy of measurement tools reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of how recording and playback systems function.

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

Now you know how we feel about the nonsense you are tell us.

 

[KLi]

Absolutely your choice. I don't think my Qutest looks that plasticky, or cheap.
Of course, that is my subjective opinion.

Was just an example, never mind. It surely is a really good device. What I wanted to say is, if you are sitting there in your chair listening to music, your eyes wander around to your equipment. And I like to see nice stuff (The Fosis I use also are not the masterclass in design anyway ;-) )

 

[BDWoody]

Could be worse you could be on a night out with me .., I could however guarantee some novel experiences.

Of that I have zero doubt.

Yes the same things on ASR come round , again and again from all sides, it's incredibly dull .

The more things change and all that...

There is however some fantastic dialogue, a quick look in the stereo sub thread might soothe the soul .

I might be looking for a couple of new subs, but would I find them there, or in the Dom thread?

 

[Liberal Democracy]

Of that I have zero doubt.



The more things change and all that...



I might be looking for a new sub, but would I find her there, or in the Dom thread?

It's a fascinating conversation over at the stereo sub thread but it's technical.. jj is currently preaching as only he can .

He's wisely taken the discussion to a new thread . ,

Minimum Phase, constant delay (aka linear phase), whazzit?

So, there was some confusion about what "minimum phase" means, what "excess phase" is, and why 'excess group delay' is not really in the vocabulary in regards to filter discussions,although it can be a kind of "pure delay" (aka linear phase) or a part of a filter that is "pure delay" (yes,it's...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[solderdude]

It’s not exactly a hit-and-run.

great ... I stand corrected (for now)

I find it interesting that the results don’t quite compare to my actual experience with the gear I tested.

I have been in audio (electronics and transducers) both professionally as well as from a hobby perspective and in those 40 years or so there has never been a clear correlation between measurements and preference in sound quality found by anyone that could prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Tons and tons of opinions and theories exist though many of them are even conflicting.

There is a clear relation between signal fidelity and measured performance though.

Maybe I don’t know what good sound quality is—but I don’t believe that.

Your preference may or may not differ from others.
I am 100% sure that what you prefer sounds best to you and thus is what you accept is good sound quality. No belief is needed here.
It is not related to signal fidelity but there are also people that want/need good signal fidelity and accept that as good sound quality. That, most likely is not a 'warm', 'lush', 'smooth', 'organic' signature but sounds like what was on the recording. The recording may or may not be of good quality.
It is 'nice' if lesser recordings are 'glossed over' with some 'nice-ness' making all recordings sound nice. Some prefer that but in the end that is 'coloration' but a pleasant one.
That's fine but is not what ASR is about.

Let me ask you the following questions

1. Have you found a clear relation between price and sound quality ?
2. Have you found a clear relation between certain brands and your preference ?
3. How does all the 'excellent sounding' gear measure ? Is there any relation found ?

I’ve tried so-called “perfect-measuring” gear, and more often than not, it sounded lifeless, without soul.

The 'life' and 'soul' is not in the recording nor the gear. There is no 'signal' for that which is 'conducted' through certain gear but not to well measuring gear.
The 'soul' (connection to the recorded music) happens in the brain.

Level matched blind testing can help to really determine that. This is VERY difficult, time consuming, tiring and frustrating to do properly.
Sooo.. people 'wing' it and love to 'know' what is playing.

That’s my real experience, not just something on paper—especially when the measurement tools themselves haven’t even been proven to provide accurate, real-world reflections of sound quality.

Yep, there is little (but up to a point there is) correlation between 'preference of sound' and 'measured performance'.
That simply must be accepted.

That said... there is a clear and undeniable correlation between signal fidelity and measurements... just not with someone's preference.

Preferred sound (perceived) quality ≠ signal fidelity.

Feel so sick of this and this is false information...

No it isn't false information.
It is an unwillingness to accept that preference ≠ measured performance.

When you enjoy certain gear and how it sounds just enjoy it.
When you want to share it with the world ... please do, there are plenty of ways to do this.
When you want to find correlation between measurements and preference ... join the rest of the audiophile and audiophool world. They have not succeeded but act as if they know what sounds good but do not measure it nor analyze, nor blind test (properly), do not use controls, do not show it to exist in real research. Good luck with that.

Hardly fair to blame it on folks that measure gear, recommend gear based on signal fidelity and like to discuss these aspects and ... expect them to give the answers as to why that is.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

ASR is happy for folks to enjoy whatever they please , it can be fascinating trying to lock down what influences our preferences. We are not all the same .

We just don't want those individual preferences ( subjective, of restricted value , singular ) to be linked to high fidelity without some rigour, examination of our self's , recordings and gear we use . All of which can be discussed freely here .

As soon as one want to over state the value of that singular subjective impression, we stumble into issues .

 

[MattHooper]

The current discussion speaks again the idea that we should be making sure people are taught some basic level of scientific literacy.
Not just knowledge derived by science, but the reasons for the scientific method.

And I think this should include direct encounters with our biases.

Even in the realm of audio gear, anybody who has engaged in blind testing in which their own bias effect is exposed - feeling like you’re really hearing a difference in uncontrolled conditions that vanishes in blinded conditions - learns I think a deep and lifelong lesson.

Personal Experience is always more effective than being taught the theory.
It leaves a mark.

I think it would be amazing if there were some
widespread curriculum on critical thinking and scientific reasoning that made clear the problem of human biases which included experiments that let people experience the effects themselves.

I took psychology courses in university (along with my major) and I found learning about bias effects to be among the most engaging and fascinating parts of the course.

 

[Sernyl]

Steven Pinker :

Rationality (book) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(translated in French, too)
...makes you think with prudence, at least.