Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Rob_Gordon]

Mr. Gordon,

Your cable doubt is financially motivated " I can’t thank ASR enough for freeing me from the cable myth, for instance! how much money saved, am I right?! "

You don't trust your own ears.

Please call back when you do. I'm done! Proverbs 26:4

Wait, you went and read some of my other messages to reply to a little joke I made about the green marker being cheap?
And like, tried to use my own sentences against me? that's rich!

I have nothing against you personally, but I don't understand why you'd think this is supposed to defeat me in anyway

I do not trust my own ears. I've said it myself! I'm proud of my self-inflicting skepticism. I think I have good reasons to be doubtful about many things in life, including my perception.

I know I've heard 10K cables and couldn't hear anything different. I know I cry of joy with my 100 bucks cable system at home. And I know measurements say that this makes sense. AND that saves me money? Why should I worry? I'm all good!

 

[Rob_Gordon]

I have a more expensive Magic Mauve Marker, that removes 2.743 more veils, but only if your system is resolving enough.

my system can only go up to the yellow markers. Mauve is still out of reach!

 

[BDWoody]

I'm done!

You are in this thread.

What a strange attempt at being insulting...

If you aren't interested in good faith interactions, you can move along.

 

[antcollinet]

Mr. Gordon,

Your cable doubt is financially motivated " I can’t thank ASR enough for freeing me from the cable myth, for instance! how much money saved, am I right?! "

You don't trust your own ears.

Please call back when you do. I'm done! Proverbs 26:4

It's you who is not trusting your ears - if you are not prepared to do the comparison "ears only", rather than relying on your eyes to tell you which item you are listening to.

IE properly controlled blind comparisons.

 

[MAB]

Mr. Gordon,

Your cable doubt is financially motivated " I can’t thank ASR enough for freeing me from the cable myth, for instance! how much money saved, am I right?! "

You don't trust your own ears.

Please call back when you do. I'm done! Proverbs 26:4

It's OK. A fool and his money are soon parted. Proverb
I have a large vintage HiFi collection funded by parting customers like you from their money on cable sales alone. Thanks for the support, you are an easy mark.

 

[SigbergAudio]

Hoo-boy. For those of you not paying attention to the Golden Ear Gurus on YouTube, here’s your fix.

First of all, I do visit his channel once in a while because I do enjoy looking at some of the crazy gear he gets in. However…

This is Jay (Jay’s Audio Lab) holding forth on the worthlessness of measurements.

I think my favourite part is when Jay starts declaring that it’s bullshit that anyone can identify problems in a frequency response just by listening. To paraphrase: “ if you have the ability to detect what frequency isn’t sounding correct just with your bare ears… you have superhuman hearing… you would not be normal…No one can detect what frequency is missing by just listening to something!”

The pain lasts about 10 minutes of ranting, so maybe remove hard or pointy objects around you while listening.

Of course, his YouTube comments, while getting some pushback, are filled with hosannas for Jay telling the truth.

This kind of stuff really makes the pure golden ear look like a dinosaur, especially given that more and more reviewers seem to be adding measurements to the reviews. And I think that Jay in particular tends to collect what’s left of the purely subjective crowd.

Interesting rant. Not sure I understand the logic in claiming that since we can't measure EVERYTHING we should also ignore that which we can measure.

Second, I agree that the thing about we can't detect what frequency is missing by listening was an interesting comment. First of all you can, with training (not like "Oh, it's a dip at 4258hz", but certainly a rough range). And second of all, didn't we NOT need measurements just a minute ago. Now suddenly the ears aren't so good after all? Jokes aside, I understand his point, and it's probably true to an extent. It's easy to get OCD with the measurements on stuff that's not really audible.

 

[Cbdb2]

Methinks not. If I take a photo with a poor camera of the Mona Lisa, it is recognizable but nothing like the original.

If it was NOTHING like the original than you wouldnt recognize it, its NOTHING like it. Look up the definition of NOTHING.

 

[MattHooper]

If it was NOTHING like the original than you wouldnt recognize it, its NOTHING like it. Look up the definition of NOTHING.

Or, perhaps another dictionary definition might be more relevant?

 

[Newman]

If it was NOTHING like the original than you wouldnt recognize it, its NOTHING like it. Look up the definition of NOTHING.

good catch!

 

[Pearljam5000]

If it was NOTHING like the original than you wouldnt recognize it, its NOTHING like it. Look up the definition of NOTHING.

Your comment inspired me to listen to NOTHING compares to you

 

[Galliardist]

If it was NOTHING like the original than you wouldnt recognize it, its NOTHING like it. Look up the definition of NOTHING.

I think this is as much about experience as "recognise".

Even a very good recording of a solo musician on the "best" system available, where the sound quality allows you to hear everything being done, will never be the same as being in the room for a live performance by the same musician. That may have absolutely nothing to do with sound quality.

Being in the presence of a great work of art, similarly, and especially one in its own prepared space in a major gallery, is going to be a different experience looking at a great photograph. So, you might be able to say "that's the Mona Lisa"... but of course it isn't.

I still object to that comment, because it implies that only a poor picture is not like seeing the real thing, when in fact a very good reproduction (even, in our terms, the best a recording can be) is still "nothing like" the real thing.

I don't want to downplay the advantages of a good reproduction, especially on an audio forum which is all about that!

 

[JustJones]

Methinks not. If I take a photo with a poor camera of the Mona Lisa, it is recognizable but nothing like the original.

 

[kjasey]

@kjasey. What part of the test results do you not understand?

I dont understand any, im not an engineer. However, i do believe i have some of the best ears and eyes in the business. My tragedy is that in most cases i pick apart sound and vision instead of enjoying the music and picture. Im always on the quest to find something better. Ive been buying and selling gear since i was 13 years old. I'm 52 now. Still searching and loving every minute of it. Thats why i love these sites and respect the opinions of all.
I love that Amir is into audio and takes the time to do this. I find it interesting.
To answer your question, what i do UNDERSTAND is the ARCAM AVR390 is better than any Denon receiver. I will never buy another Denon regardless of what any charts say.

 

[SIY]

i do believe i have some of the best ears and eyes in the business.

Cool story, bro.

 

[Purité Audio]

I used to be a sock model.
Keith

 

[MAB]

My tragedy is that in most cases i pick apart sound and vision instead of enjoying the music and picture.

No, this is a bad personality trait, nothing to do with your hearing, average or otherwise.

 

[JiiPee]

It is a well-known fact, that 52 year olds have the best hearing abilities and the sharpest eyesight.

 

[SIY]

It is a well-known fact, that 52 year olds have the best hearing abilities and the sharpest eyesight.

Did I mention that even though I'm 70, I have to keep resisting the advances from Sydney Sweeney?

 

[Petrushka]

Or, perhaps another dictionary definition might be more relevant?

View attachment 415104

Hyperbole is better than Super Bowl.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It is a well-known fact, that 52 year olds have the best hearing abilities and the sharpest eyesight.

Sure. Haven't you heard of sharpening your skills? The senses are the same way. The more you use them the sharper they get. The older you get the better you hear and see. I thought everyone knew this. Those older people that are hard of hearing, they are the ones who got lazy and quit listening.