Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Jim Taylor]

I think you’re making incorrect assumptions about me in a rather patronising and arrogant way, or at least that’s how I perceive it.

@antcollinet is being neither patronizing nor arrogant. He is presenting to you a situation endemic to the "high-end" audio industry in as kind and patient a manner as possible. He refers to "perceptive biases" ... which is another term for cognitive biases. You can read about them here:

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And he is correct; we cannot "turn them off". Cognitive biases, and the accompanying heuristics, are hard-wired into our brains. In other words, they are the native methods that our brains use to function.

What Is Cognitive Bias? Types & Examples

Cognitive bias is a systematic error in thinking, affecting how we process information, perceive others, and make decisions. It can lead to irrational thoughts or judgments and is often based on our perceptions, memories, or individual and societal beliefs.

www.simplypsychology.org

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What Is Cognitive Bias? 7 Examples & Resources (Incl. Codex)

Being aware of our biases is the first step towards overcoming them.

positivepsychology.com

Please note in these definitions and examples that a "cognitive bias" is a deviation from reality, and that a "heuristic" is a shortcut used for efficiency, but which may not be accurate.

There are two sorts of businesses in this world:
1) a business which depends on scientific accuracy to achieve its goals, independent of emotions and preferences. This describes electrical generation, production of aircraft (other than Boeing), accuracy of artillery, use of x-rays and MRI for medical diagnosis, production of metal alloys and cell phone communications. These things are not made tto work on opinions ... they are made to work on precise engineering principles and nothing else.

2) a business which depends on people's preferences to achieve its goals, mostly (but not completely) independent of scientific accuracy and engineering tolerances. The fashion industry is an example of this; do you really think that a Chanel or Louis Vuitton handbag is worth over $5,000 ? Or, do you believe that the food served at the SubliMotion restaurant is actually worth almost $2,000 per person?
These are examples of social status. The people who swim in these circles know what they're doing, and they don't really care about performance. But for this high-end stratum of consumerism to exist, there must be hundreds or thousands of people who desire to achieve these goods for every one who consumes it. The industry can only thrive when masses of have-nots drool over the thought of actually possessing this type of merchandise. That desirability is the "shine" that illuminates this high-end industry.

So it is with high-end audio. Scientific principles are secondary to the ability to attract the consumer. Sound engineering is tolerated only insofar as it does not place undue burden on brand differentiation. And the so-called "bang-for-the buck" principle is rejected.

The biases and prejudices of the consumers are used to play people along, to manipulate their reactions and to cement their association, all for profit. And many of the entities in this segment of the industry are excellent at doing this.

Do you know what those types of people are called? They're called con artists, or scam artists. They skillfully play on people's weaknesses and biases, and use them to achieve their ends.
I mentioned MRI machines, cell phones and artillery. Do people's weaknesses, opinions and biases play into the uses (and technological advances) of these items? No, they do not. It's simply a matter of the things working the way they are suppose to ... or not. No excuses. No half-way. Opinions don't perform open-heart surgery. Biases don't send signals from the Mars Rovers.

But they sure as hell sell expensive audio gear!

Lest you think I am condemning people's personal preferences such as tube gear or vintage speakers, let me make one thing clear. There is nothing wrong with preferences. But deceptive claims based on ambiguous subjective language has nothing to do with personal preference.

The thing we criticize at ASR is the spurious claims by bunco artists that merchandise they offer performs at a superior level. IOW, they ascribe characteristics to justify their price that are neither supported by analysis nor proven scientifically to even exist. Fairy dust, unicorn horns and esoteric club memberships are all they can offer ... but man, does it ever succeed!

So yes, people can like whatever they want. No Problem. But ... look at your preferences with a dispassionate eye (and ear). None of us wants to be a tool that leads others down the primrose path to fantasy addiction, just to line the pockets of those who would profit by manipulating us.

Jim

 

[Newman]

None of the AN gear I have sounds warm, woolly, or harmonically distorted to give a romantic sound - to me it sounds natural and faithful to the original recordings. To give some context, I listen to a wide variety of music including electronica, techno, rock, hip hop, funk, jazz and classical, and the AN gear never struggles with any of it. People tend to think of valve amps as having that rosy, romantic quality but that's not what I'm hearing at all. It is crisp, clear, dynamic and punchy without harshness.

Unfortunately, fans of every type of product make statements along these lines, including some quite coloured gear. So it is neither accurate nor meaningful to the readership....agreed? I mean, everything is meaningful to oneself (say, tarot cards that came true for you, ghosts you saw....) but that doesn't make it either accurate or meaningful to the reader. If everyone agrees it is fiction for entertainment, then maybe. But the implication is that these 'my hifi opinion' stories are telling us something useful about the sound waves themselves. They are not.

The key point missing from your message is an understanding of the Sighted Listening Effect.

The more we learn about perception, we more we realise that context re-writes raw data, but our hard-wiring says it’s still raw data. It’s a natural-selection survival mechanism: believe what our senses are telling us, or die. But in truth our perceptions are creations, not observations.

There is no accounting for what one's own personal mental filters/cognitive biases do in sighted listening conditions. Our uncontrolled experience routinely tells us that cables sound dramatically different, DACs sound dramatically different, Ethernet supply lines sound dramatically different, power cords sound dramatically different, well-measuring amps sound dramatically different, speaker A sounds significantly superior than B sighted then the opposite under controlled conditions. The sky‘s the limit. If your personal filters force you, for example, to hear boxed-in sound from any speaker with a cabinet, then that’s that. And I would not discourage you from acting on it. But the point is that you will have nothing instructive to say to anyone, anywhere, except yourself, on that point. But the audio forums are awash with people, with helpful hearts and in all sincerity, saying “it sounded like this to me” as if they were talking instructively about sound waves, when in fact they aren’t. It’s no wonder, since the brain is hard-wired to tell us that perceptions are always describing objective real external phenomena, for survival. The educational challenge, for us in this hobby, is to come to terms with this in a way that stops us from accidentally and sincerely misleading one another, while still being an amicable community of people sharing a hobby and helping one another.

cheers

 

[antcollinet]

Thanks for apologising and explaining your stance. I appreciate it. Sorry that we started off on the wrong foot.

No problem.

 

[Purité Audio]

‘Upgrade’ to an AN dac? Hardly.
Keith

 

[ahofer]

Worth reposting these due to the repeating claims made above. One may *know* about cognitive bias, but not see how it is operating on them and/or fail to devise methods to control for it.

All that being said, I gather the added harmonic distortion from Audio Note products may indeed create audible differences. But there are *much* cheaper ways to do that.

Catalogue of blind tests

I thought this thread on Head-Fi was a valiant effort to put together blind tests that have been performed over the years. Given that there have been many more (I'm thinking Archimago's tests, among others), it would be fun to open source a complete list...

audiosciencereview.com

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

audiosciencereview.com

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm a producer familiar with mixing and mastering, so I own most of those specific Waves plugins but none of them will make my nearfield monitors (Neumann KH120 II) with a very flat response and low distortion sound anything near as joyful or even vaguely similar to my AN-J speakers. The Neumann are excellent monitors - accurate and extremely useful tools for mixing and mastering but that’s about it for me. If I want to imagine I'm hearing a live orchestra with instruments all around me, the AN-Js fit the bill.

So you're saying after mixing and mastering on accurate monitors the AN J speakers sound very different which would mean coloration even if preferred by you means you have no idea what recordings were supposed to sound like.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Well, thanks for the mansplain (assuming you're a man with the name Jim, apologies if you're not). Why are you telling me all this?

You have six posts and I don't know anything about you, nor do I make assumptions. After all, you did say, in response to @Jimi Floyd :

"In a way I'm pleased to hear that, because I don't like spending money unnecessarily but I'll need convincing, so can you elaborate?"

I only came on here to offer my opinions and actual experiences on the SMSL D6s that was well reviewed here, and that I subsequently purchased in the hope it might contribute in some small way to help some people make an informed decision, even if it's only my dumb subjective opinion and not at all scientific.

Your opinions and actual experiences do not contribute in some small way to help some people make an informed decision. And you are correct, that's a subjectivist view ... one that puts opinion and "feeling" at a higher level of importance than objective tests and measurements, and not at all scientific.

ASR is not a subjectivist website.

I also wanted to know if anyone knew if the D6s was good enough for me to never need to upgrade to an Audio Note DAC

I believe that this has already been explained to you as a move downward, not upward.

but then my messages got moved to a different thread where I was subjected to a barrage of long explanations about psychology and how the world works, which I never asked for.

Life is not a process of getting only what you ask for.

Science is an ongoing process and theories can change, so I think people should be less arrogant about it.

Science is dispassionate (unemotional). Arrogance is an emotional reaction.

And by the way ... welcome to ASR.

Jim

 

[MAB]

I’m not trying to lead anyone down a path and my intention was not to gush about AN products. Sorry if it was perceived that way.

You do come across as gushing about Audio Note.
But much worse is your response to people trying lead you to some actual science about how human hearing works, and why you might be gushing about speakers without knowing what you are talking about.

 

[AdamG]

Well, thanks for the mansplain

You are getting some well reasoned responses that took great effort to compose. There is no reason to start throwing insults around. We don’t permit personal insults here in general. You are new here and this crowd is highly technical and many are professionals in their fields of Engineering. We are a Science based community and have little space or time for Subjectivity. Subjectivity is the antithesis to evidence based science. Please try to keep that in mind.

@Sybarite Welcome to ASR.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wasn't debating whether AN speakers are coloured or not - they probably are but they sound more real to me than anything else I ever heard and if nobody believes me it really doesn't matter - I never once suggested anyone should buy a pair, nor did I say they were accurate. I only happened to mention it was my system and I like the sound of it, and to quote myself "to me it sounds natural and faithful to the original recordings". I wasn't presenting it as a fact that should apply to everyone. Of course they sound different because they are much bigger speakers. I know what my tracks are supposed to sound like because I made them. I use both sets of speakers, a mobile phone, a laptop and a car stereo to check my mixing and mastering sounds OK on a wide variety of speakers. For obvious reasons the AN-J's give a sense of scale that none of my other speakers can.

Yes with your recordings, but with anyone else's you won't know how it sounded. Everyone should purchase what they enjoy. And I'd imagine everyone here listens on more than one single set of speakers. The AN-Js like all Audio Note gear seem to charge a lot for what you get. If you are happy that is good enough. You run into similar issues asking about SMSL vs AN Dacs which quite simply are a broken design. Again if you like it fine, but if your preference is something that broken hard for anyone else to give you useful suggestions. Quoting sighted, uncontrolled subjective reviews is a polluted misleading source of information. We are trying to get that across to you. You may or may not like something, but the various audio reviewers are effectively useless for genuine guidance.

 

[Sybarite]

Thanks to those who welcomed me and to anyone who wasted their Sunday replying to me in depth.

Thanks @AdamG, I have taken on board what you said that subjectivity is the antithesis to evidence based science, which is not welcome here. That is absolutely a fair point. It is after all called Audio Science Review, so I should really have known better.

I didn't plan on having arguments or intend to offend anyone. I apologise to @Jim Taylor for using the word 'mansplaining'. It wasn't intended as an insult, but it is quite insulting when people assume you're stupid and feel they must educate the stupid person. You may percieve that as an act of kindness but I didn't. Sorry for seeming ungrateful.

I came here to leave an honest review and thank Amir for his, which helped me, but the responses I got were quite surprising and not exactly relevant to the question I asked, but I guess the question was flawed.

I like reading the reviews on ASR and will continue to. This is an excellent resource and I appreciate all your work but life is too short to argue with strangers, so I'm out.

I wish you all the best!

@amirm, please delete my account.

 

[MAB]

It wasn't intended as an insult, but it is quite insulting when people assume you're stupid and feel they must educate the stupid person. You may percieve that as an act of kindness but I didn't. Sorry for seeming ungrateful.

Your response to Jim amazed me. He wasn't insulting, you just seem to be incredibly easy to insult. All the more bewildering since you started throwing shade immediately when you didn't get validation for your views.

@amirm, please delete my account.

Not surprised to see you go since you seemed determined to make a poor entry. In the future, read the room before you engage.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I apologise to @Jim Taylor for using the word 'mansplaining'.

Don't worry about it ... I've seen worse.

BTW ... a little niggling technicality. People don't explain things because they think someone is "stupid". They explain things to add to the recipient's knowledge base. That's what teachers do; they add to their pupils' knowledge base. Teachers don't do this because they think their pupils are "stupid", but would simply benefit from more information. There is no shame in that, no insult. Throughout their lives, teachers from kindergarten up to post-grad level allow others to partake of their knowledge for the sake of a better understanding of both the human condition and the world around us.

I don't pretend to be a teacher ... I'm not capable. But there are many here who are teachers, and I mean that very literally. You should stick around and enjoy the benefit of their knowledge and experience. We can ALL learn more.

Jim

 

[ahofer]

He responded to me, but I guess thought better of continuing the discussion (see below). I think this is just a case of someone with a preference. But I do find the claims about the inadequacy of measurements odd. In my experience here, it usually comes down to a problem with a conventional suite of measurements, not that audible phenomena can’t be measured by available instruments. But I’m always interested in people who claim the latter, which strikes me as without any plausible evidence.

 

[Sybarite]

Don't worry about it ... I've seen worse.

BTW ... a little niggling technicality. People don't explain things because they think someone is "stupid". They explain things to add to the recipient's knowledge base. That's what teachers do; they add to their pupils' knowledge base. Teachers don't do this because they think their pupils are "stupid", but simply uninformed. There is no shame in that, no insult. Throughout their lives, teachers from kindergarten up to post-grad level allow others to partake of their knowledge for the sake of a better understanding of both the human condition and the world around us.

I don't pretend to be a teacher ... I'm not capable. But there are many here who are teachers, and I mean that very literally. You should stick around and enjoy the benefit of their knowledge and experience. We can ALL learn more.

Jim

Thanks Jim. You seem like a good person and I got the wrong end of the stick. I am a grumpy shit at the moment due to stopping vaping for several days, so I should have waited for that to pass before posting on here, but I needed to get rid of this excess energy somehow.

The thing is, I asked one basic question about a DAC but never got a reply I thought was directly relevant to the question, other than vague responses like "it's a downgrade". I know you said "life is not a process of getting only what you ask for", but when I ask for apples and get oranges it doesn't help much. It was kind of you to respond in such detail in an attempt to increase my knowledge, even if I did take it the wrong way, I'm sorry again for being so unappreciative.

I don't want to stay here as a member now. I've clearly annoyed too many people from the outset, but I've realised now that I simply don't have time for posting anything on any forums these days. I can still read it without being a member, which suits me fine.

 

[Sybarite]

He responded to me, but I guess thought better of continuing the discussion (see below). I think this is just a case of someone with a preference. But I do find the claims about the inadequacy of measurements odd. In my experience here, it usually comes down to a problem with a conventional suite of measurements, not that audible phenomena can’t be measured by available instruments. But I’m always interested in people who claim the latter, which strikes me as without any plausible evidence.


View attachment 384645

I have nothing against measurments, as that's what science relies on, but we still barely understand consciousness or the universe, so why assume we know all there is to know about sound? Is the testing equipment or method as good as it can be? I doubt it but I'm no scientist, so happy to be educated in this instance.

 

[DonH56]

<elided>...it is quite insulting when people assume you're stupid and feel they must educate the stupid person. You may percieve that as an act of kindness but I didn't. Sorry for seeming ungrateful.

Just to echo what others have said, no insult was intended by those responding. When a new member joins we have no way of knowing their background, be it educational, audio, or whatever. If something seems amiss, folk will try to help by explaining the issue, and hopefully presenting additional information to help understanding. Coming in "cold" it often does not feel that way, and they may feel attacked and insulted rather than helped. Without a priori knowledge of their (your, anybody's) background it is common to assume a fairly low knowledge level and thus explanations may be well beneath your level of experience and understanding.

Many members have been here many years, have seen the same things posted over and over, and are so are quick to respond in what might seem to be a disparaging tone. There are also fairly frequently posts from new members who assume a sense of authority and experience (if not superiority -- and I am not saying you did that!) that they feel unique but is in fact similar to (and often less than) experts who are already members. We have mixing and mastering engineers, circuit and equipment designers, musicians, college professors, and so forth, as well as many audiophiles here to learn more technical aspects as well as read the reviews. The latter group includes experts in other fields who often contribute in areas outside audio.

Finally for me, ignorance is not stupidity, and my assuming ignorance on your (a general "your") part due to the lack of knowing what you already know, does not in any way mean I think you are stupid. Or ignorant, for that matter, but until we have more of an exchange, I have no idea your level of competence and experience, and my own experience online as well as teaching various courses and lecturing over the years leads me to start with the basics and build from there. Sometimes the conversation quickly jumps to the expert level; other times, it is a slow walk. But unless you post you know calculus right from the start, I'll talk about algebra first.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[AdamG]

Thanks Jim. You seem like a good person and I got the wrong end of the stick. I am a grumpy shit at the moment due to stopping vaping for several days, so I should have waited for that to pass before posting on here, but I needed to get rid of this excess energy somehow.

The thing is, I asked one basic question about a DAC but never got a reply I thought was directly relevant to the question, other than vague responses like "it's a downgrade". I know you said "life is not a process of getting only what you ask for", but when I ask for apples and get oranges it doesn't help much. It was kind of you to respond in such detail in an attempt to increase my knowledge, even if I did take it the wrong way, I'm sorry again for being so unappreciative.

I don't want to stay here as a member now. I've clearly annoyed too many people from the outset, but I've realised now that I simply don't have time for posting anything on any forums these days. I can still read it without being a member, which suits me fine.

You are more than welcome to stay and grow with us. You certainly aren’t the first person to start off on the back foot and we have a very forgiving membership. So you have not made any unredeemable mistakes here. Let things cool off and start again fresh another day. My first day was pretty brutal when I think back. And they let me stay!

 

[Sybarite]

Just to echo what others have said, no insult was intended by those responding. When a new member joins we have no way of knowing their background, be it educational, audio, or whatever. If something seems amiss, folk will try to help by explaining the issue, and hopefully presenting additional information to help understanding. Coming in "cold" it often does not feel that way, and they may feel attacked and insulted rather than helped. Without a priori knowledge of their (your, anybody's) background it is common to assume a fairly low knowledge level and thus explanations may be well beneath your level of experience and understanding.

Many members have been here many years, have seen the same things posted over and over, and are so are quick to respond in what might seem to be a disparaging tone. There are also fairly frequently posts from new members who assume a sense of authority and experience (if not superiority -- and I am not saying you did that!) that they feel unique but is in fact similar to (and often less than) experts who are already members. We have mixing and mastering engineers, circuit and equipment designers, musicians, college professors, and so forth, as well as many audiophiles here to learn more technical aspects as well as read the reviews. The latter group includes experts in other fields who often contribute in areas outside audio.

Finally for me, ignorance is not stupidity, and my assuming ignorance on your (a general "your") part due to the lack of knowing what you already know, does not in any way mean I think you are stupid. Or ignorant, for that matter, but until we have more of an exchange, I have no idea your level of competence and experience, and experience online as well as teaching various courses and lecturing over the years leads me to start with the basics and build from there. Sometimes the conversation quickly jumps to the expert level; other times, it is a slow walk. But unless you post you know calculus right from the start, I'll talk about algebra first.

FWIWFM - Don

Thanks Don, that was a nice response. Much appreciated!

 

[Sybarite]

You are more than welcome to stay and grow with us. You certainly aren’t the first person to start off on the back foot and we have a very forgiving membership. So you have not made any unredeemable mistakes here. Let things cool off and start again fresh another day. My first day was pretty brutal when I think back. And they let me stay!

Kind of you to say that, thank you!