Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[AustreV]

Except nothing you wrote in this is true. Lots of statistics with lots of people have been used. So many have said the same thing about in simple cases you don't need it. Guess what, when they try the same comparison blind with level matching they no longer here these simple obvious differences. Everything other than speakers/headphones and microphones are good enough any influence is inaudible to anyone.

Try this one for a simple obvious difference in sound. No way you get fooled right?

Maybe you are write, but can I ask you firstly. Are you won't be able to differ mp3 player something like cowon j3 from any modern DAP for example?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Maybe you are write, but can I ask you firstly. Are you won't be able to differ mp3 player something like cowon j3 from any modern DAP for example?

Never used a Cowon J3, and not familiar with it. If it has good low distortion, low noise and flat response it will be fine.

 

[AustreV]

See above, McGurk effect. A great example of sighted bias.

'Sentences' is plural. As in you have written more than one 'sentence' that is gibberish. You are really grasping. Thank goodness for the forum ignore, which I just applied to your account.

Ive typed right form for you. Firstly you have typed "sentence", after Ive pointed on that, you have fixed it. Omg. If your can't understand that, bad story for you. Seems you didn't. Well, hope same misunderstanding would not follow your audio-life decisions.

 

[AustreV]

Never used a Cowon J3, and not familiar with it.

Okay but, I dont know but I think you should clearly be able to distinquish some yamaha basic modern amplifier from their top line amplifier. If not, well. Okay measurments its the only thing that would help in that case.

 

[SIY]

I guess blind test can be replaced in some cases.

Not in this context, no. Basic controls are basic.

If you have no interest in testing your perceptions to see if they are real or brain tricks (which we are ALL susceptible to) you really shouldn't be posting in a science and reality based forum. There's plenty of other places for storytelling. If you DO trust your ears and want to check things with basic ears-only protocols, lots of people here will be helpful.

 

[MAB]

Ive typed right form for you. Firstly you have typed "sentence", after Ive pointed on that, you have fixed it. Omg. If your can't understand that, bad story for you. Seems you didn't. Well, hope same misunderstanding would not follow your audio-life decisions.

Nope! Nothing fixed, otherwise it shows up as edited!!! Like many of your posts:

I I do make typos all the time, this isn't one of those examples.
You keep writing some serious gibberish. But don't let my typos, real or imagined, distract you from thinking about the McGurk video.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Okay but, I dont know but I think you should clearly be able to distinquish some yamaha basic modern amplifier from their top line amplifier. If not, well. Okay measurments its the only thing that would help in that case.

If the amplifier has a low output impedance and enough power it won't be a problem. Heard and used many amplifiers with some very difficult speakers. You are on again about your hearing is not good enough, your gear is not good enough, you lack experience etc. As SIY said you aren't the first person telling us this story or even the one thousandth.

 

[SIY]

I think you should clearly be able to distinquish some yamaha basic modern amplifier from their top line amplifier.

If you think so, demonstrate it. Do a level-matched comparison, ears-only, basic controls, and show that you can distinguish them.

So far, nobody has done so in decades of these claims unless at least one amp was broken, overloaded, or had a non-flat frequency response (which would not be the case here). Nobody. You could be the one!

 

[AustreV]

Not in this context, no. Basic controls are basic.

If you have no interest in testing your perceptions to see if they are real or brain tricks (which we are ALL susceptible to) you really shouldn't be posting in a science and reality based forum. There's plenty of other places for storytelling. If you DO trust your ears and want to check things with basic ears-only protocols, lots of people here will be helpful.

I dont mind to test it. Why not. I can participate in some or will make some blind testing in local shop. If I would not be able to distinquish two random amps for example of different quality level, okay. I will admit I was wrong and that you cant trust your ears at all in that kind of "work".

 

[Doodski]

I dont mind to test it. Why not. I can participate in some or will make some blind testing in local shop. If I would not be able to distinquish two random amps for example of different quality level, okay. I will admit I was wrong and that you cant trust your ears at all in that kind of "work".

Sure. Set it up with a local shop but you need to match the amplifier output levels very closely. The store needs to have a AB switchbox for speaker level power.

 

[SIY]

I dont mind to test it. Why not. I can participate in some or will make some blind testing in local shop. If I would not be able to distinquish two random amps for example of different quality level, okay. I will admit I was wrong and that you cant trust your ears at all in that kind of "work".

Likelihood of an actual controlled test at a shop- zero.

It's easy to do a test yourself. It takes some free software (Deltawave) and an ADC interface to record the electrical signals at your speaker terminals.

 

[SIY]

Sure. Set it up with a local shop but you need to match the amplifier output levels very closely.

100% of the time, shops will "coach." I mean, this is their livelihood. Last time I was at a shop that did a comparison, in this case their "proof" that FLAC and WAV "sounded different," the guy actually said stuff like, "Listen to how much smoother this is!" When I asked if they were willing to do a double blind test, he looked honestly surprised and said, "That WAS a double blind test!" Idiot or crook, who knows.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I dont mind to test it. Why not. I can participate in some or will make some blind testing in local shop. If I would not be able to distinquish two random amps for example of different quality level, okay. I will admit I was wrong and that you cant trust your ears at all in that kind of "work".

You can try these if you like. Drop them in Foobar ABX or the ABX function inside Deltawave. Or just listen to them casually and find out if they sound different to you.

8th generation ADC/DAC loop vs the original.....can you hear it?

Download this zip file. It will unzip into a folder with three 30 second snippets of a Fiona Apple song. Two are the original digital file. One is an 8th generation loop thru DAC/ADC. Pick the odd file out on the poll...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Listen and choose the 8th generation digital copy.

Each of these zip files will open into three wav files. One is labeled Reference, one is A and one is B. These are 30 second snippets of full songs. The originals were from CD so all 44.1 khz and 16 bit. Either A or B has been thru 8 generations of DA to AD copying. The other is identical...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[AustreV]

Except nothing you wrote in this is true. Lots of statistics with lots of people have been used. So many have said the same thing about in simple cases you don't need it. Guess what, when they try the same comparison blind with level matching they no longer hear these simple obvious differences. Everything other than speakers/headphones and microphones are good enough any influence is inaudible to anyone.

Try this one for a simple obvious difference in sound. No way you get fooled right?

Okay, good video. But what about cases when visual information doesnt matter for you in particular case? If your are not biased or biases in "opposite way", but still get results that should not be affected by our inner thoughts or not intersecting with our ".real interest/intention".
Here you can see how visual information affects your decisions, you can easily explain it. But my case was different even I understood your basic message.

 

[AustreV]

100% of the time, shops will "coach." I mean, this is their livelihood. Last time I was at a shop that did a comparison, in this case their "proof" that FLAC and WAV "sounded different," the guy actually said stuff like, "Listen to how much smoother this is!" When I asked if they were willing to do a double blind test, he looked honestly surprised and said, "That WAS a double blind test!" Idiot or crook, who knows.

I would do it other way. So take your friend for example to watch that all fair, sit on chair, back in front of the manager, ask him to bring 2 different level amplifiers of same brand if possible and some headphones. Ask to plug in first one, after some time of listening music 1min max, second. So after that, you can say which was in n1 and n2 by just knowing device level/price after you have heard them.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Okay, good video. But what about cases when visual information doesnt matter for you in particular case? If your are not biased or biases in "opposite way", but still get results that should not be affected by our inner thoughts or not intersecting with our ".real interest/intention".
Here you can see how visual information affects your decisions, you can easily explain it. But my case was different even I understood your basic message.

This is part of what we are trying to get across to you. You have very limited control over things that bias you. You might think additional exposure, or particular experience or knowing how your hearing can be influenced would provide protection against it. It does not. You'll still be likely to connect up two different amps, and hear some differences. Even I do. Yet if the level is matched and I don't know which of the two is playing the "obvious differences" I heard just disappear. That is because they weren't in the signal of the amps to begin with.

 

[Doodski]

100% of the time, shops will "coach." I mean, this is their livelihood. Last time I was at a shop that did a comparison, in this case their "proof" that FLAC and WAV "sounded different," the guy actually said stuff like, "Listen to how much smoother this is!" When I asked if they were willing to do a double blind test, he looked honestly surprised and said, "That WAS a double blind test!" Idiot or crook, who knows.

I've seen university grads hired for a sales position and they need training about RCA cables. Some eventually learn the ropes but many drop out from starvation and confusion. The fastest escalation from newbie sales person to top 10 sales in a company of ~700 sales employees reliably month after month was a young guy that worked as a carnival worker for years. He was used to the public, used to talking to people and he was hungry. So one never knows what they are getting sometimes.

 

[AustreV]

Nope! Nothing fixed, otherwise it shows up as edited!!! Like many of your posts:
View attachment 382454 I I do make typos all the time, this isn't one of those examples.
You keep writing some serious gibberish. But don't let my typos, real or imagined, distract you from thinking about the McGurk video.

Are you sure you can see "edited" label in all cases? Even if several seconds passed only.
Secondly visual effect got almost nothing in case I've described. So its again miss from you. Thirdly, you said, you added me to "ignore", so why answering still after, is it a lie?

 

[Chagall]

Don't feed the trolls after midnight.

 

[SIY]

I would do it other way

There's no excuse for not using basic controls. None. You either trust your ears or you don't and need to have lots of non-auditory cues to guess properly.