Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[amirm]

You wonder if those measurements are measuring everything. What if your ear colours the sound and counter coloured audio gear gives a net neutral sound? ooooo.

We don't measure "everything" in anything in life. Yet, life goes on as the saying goes. So not sure why measuring everything is a criteria in audio when it is not anywhere else.

Logic indicates that we measure what matters and not perform redundant tests. That is what you see me doing.

 

[voodooless]

What if your ear colours the sound and counter coloured audio gear gives a net neutral sound?

And your ears only do that with speakers, and not with “real” sounds? Seems far fetched…

 

[Piggyback41]

We don't measure "everything" in anything in life.

I know, we like to try, I do. The consumer should, if he wants the ultimate thing. It's a pursuit to try and get the ultimate, not stopping short.

So not sure why measuring everything is a criteria in audio when it is not anywhere else.

I like audio, max out on knowledge. It's a passion to do that for me.

Logic indicates that we measure what matters and not perform redundant tests. That is what you see me doing.

Measure what matters, yes, I agree with that.

Redundant tests, well, at least do them, to see if it is redundant.

But my statement I just said has me wondering, the ear and brain will colour the signal, we know this well with how people are and neurology is. If audio gear is counter coloured to that psyche/brain/ear, the total is a neutral sound. It's probably why, for what I read somewhere, that people didn't like hearing flat response, or at least, wasn't the no.1 favoured in blind listening tests, probably because, coloured systems are countering the colouration by their ear and brain to get a more neutral sound, that sounds, nice, to them.

 

[SIY]

I don't think there's ever been a test on adding lots of little audio related things up? Call 'Russell's Teapot' on that.

Yes, there has, a group in Spain replaced the entire electronic chain (which was a cheap receiver) with discrete high end gear an cables, keeping speakers constant. And not unexpectedly, when no peeking was allowed, the differences vanished.

 

[Piggyback41]

And your ears only do that with speakers, and not with “real” sounds? Seems far fetched…

Don't we all hear sounds differently, slightly? Other than deaf people.

 

[Piggyback41]

Yes, there has, a group in Spain replaced the entire electronic chain (which was a cheap receiver) with discrete high end gear an cables, keeping speakers constant. And not unexpectedly, when no peeking was allowed, the differences vanished.

Wow. Better save our money then, no point reading Amir's reviews is there, just buy a cheap DAC AMP off Amazon!

 

[SIY]

It's probably why, for what I read somewhere, that people didn't like hearing flat response, or at least, wasn't the no.1 favoured in blind listening tests, probably because, coloured systems are countering the colouration by their ear and brain to get a more neutral sound, that sounds, nice, to them.

Not only completely untrue (read, e.g., the extensive research of Floyd Toole), but completely illogical.

 

[Piggyback41]

Not only completely untrue (read, e.g., the extensive research of Floyd Toole), but completely illogical.

You said a cheap receiver is the same as high end gear and cables...

 

[SIY]

Wow. Better save our money then, no point reading Amir's reviews is there, just buy a cheap DAC AMP off Amazon!

Leave no nonsequitur unturned.

 

[SIY]

You said a cheap receiver is the same as high end gear and cables...

Leave no nonsequitur unturned.

 

[Piggyback41]

Leave no nonsequitur unturned.

Sorry I see you are talking of another quote.

Not illogical, all our ears and brains are different. Our ears and brains must be colouring a signal? No?

 

[voodooless]

Our ears and brains must be colouring a signal? No?

No.. you hear what you hear. For you that is normal. Any external audible coloration will sound like coloration to anyone capable of hearing it. Now, if you like it or not, that is a different question.

 

[Piggyback41]

Leave no nonsequitur unturned.

Right same for cables too then.

 

[Piggyback41]

No.. you hear what you hear. For you that is normal. Any external audible coloration will sound like coloration to anyone capable of hearing it. Now, if you like it or not, that is a different question.

You say a flat response on a measurement device will be a flat response to all ears and brains?

 

[Blumlein 88]

You say a flat response on a measurement device will be a flat response to all ears and brains?

Unless you are wanting to play silly word games not even a question worth asking or answering.

 

[audiosciencestudent]

You wonder if those measurements are measuring everything. What if your ear colours the sound and counter coloured audio gear gives a net neutral sound? ooooo.

Don't care , that's the best we can do in a reasonable manner. Everything cannot be engineered out of the equation.
But the least we can do is not start with something which is already broken , best that can be done is by starting on the right foot by measuring the device using state of the art equipment.

The doubt of "what if its not measuring everything" is ok by me. I can live with that as compared to buying something which intentionally has distortion, poor resolution , non linear out of the box.

It's like buying an engine which has been dynoed by factoring in the altitude , o2 density , ambient temperature, moisture in the air , fuel etc etc.
Now compare that to buying something based on what some says it will "feel" like.

I can live with the fact that while someone intentionally dynoed the engine and went to extreme measures to account for everything .. and maybe it may be a bit off by 0.5 HP above/below. That much level of inaccuracy is ok as compared to going by how someone says it will feel like.

I'll stick to charts and graphs. I need a spec sheet, I need to see the tolerances and how a system has been engineered based on the testing.

 

[Piggyback41]

Unless you are wanting to play silly word games not even a question worth asking or answering.

Silly word games? My question is obviously regarding biology (science) that concerns audio, this is a audio science review forum, not an audio engineering review forum.

So, I'll say it again, is a flat response on a measurement device a flat response to all ears and brains, i.e. is everyone's ear and brain adding colouration to that external flat response signal? If you do not know, then you don't know! But it's a very good question isn't it.

 

[JustJones]

Silly word games? My question is obviously regarding biology (science) that concerns audio, this is a audio science review forum, not an audio engineering review forum.

So, I'll say it again, is a flat response on a measurement device a flat response to all ears and brains, i.e. is everyone's ear and brain adding colouration to that external flat response signal? If you do not know, then you don't know!

No, you're asking silly things. Our brains aren't wired into any of this. How could our brain add or subtract anything from any measurement taken from audio devices.

 

[amirm]

I know, we like to try, I do. The consumer should, if he wants the ultimate thing. It's a pursuit to try and get the ultimate, not stopping short.

Oh? You measure the chemical nature of every glass of water you drink to validate that yesterday's glass had calories and today does not?

 

[amirm]

I like audio, max out on knowledge. It's a passion to do that for me.

We are giving you knowledge. You are asking for data on things that may not exist. That, we can never do.

First prove you have a proper observation and then we will snap to give you measurements. Saying we are not measuring some unknown things is non sequitur.