Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Killingbeans]

My first question is, does this line up with how most people here reason about this stuff?

Yes, fits the consensus pretty well

 

[Waxx]

4. To avoid this hedonic treadmill and converge reliably on a satisfying playback system, it is best to accommodate personal preferences either through loudspeaker selection or through EQ/DSP, and strive for measured accuracy everywhere else in the playback chain.
Personally, this model appeals to me because it seems orderly, rational, and manageable, and I've seen so much embarrassing audiophile snake oil debunked over the decades. I'd rather buy for life than spend my time on the treadmill of placebo-induced audiophile revelations.

Not really, an amp or preamp can also colour a sound in a way that is wanted, but you should know what it's doing, and a coloured sound is not as good as a clean sound from pure technical point of view. But some (including me) like that type of colour of tube amps and class A amps and enjoy music more with those (and that is what matters at the end).

But i would never use it for studio monitoring purpose, there you want as clean as possible and others (certain class AB and class D/Digital) are better at that. And if you want a certain colouration, you can also put that in numbers and graphs, and it's best to know that so you can use objective measurements to find the right amp/preamp or speaker with that colouration.

 

[gfinlays]

Alright, I will kick this off!!! Thanks @amirm for setting this up.

First, I believe in measurements. Every gear I buy I need to look at measurements if available. I own the Topping D90SE, because it measures the best, the reason why I brought it, amongst the functionality and the fact that it was on sale. However, I didn't keep it because it measures the best, because I thought it sounds terrific. I am a trained EE, albeit non practicing. As an engineer, I say, you need to measure it, in order to build it.

Also let me get out of the way, there are legit snake oil out there and you know what I am talking about.

But is measurement for electronics the end all be all to guage sound quality?

If two amps measured exactly alike, but they are from different manufacturers with different design, will they sound exactly alike?

Can one buy an amp or DAC, just by looking at the measurements without any audition and know that it will sound like any other amp or DAC only less or more distortion?

If so, why are there so many people not have the Benchmark AHB2 and LA4 and the Topping D90SE combination (budget and use case functionality aside). After all, they measured the best. Yes, yes, some will say because, I need more power (you can bridge the Benchmark into mono btw), some will say I need some other functionalities, etc etc.

Why does x SINAD, y THD and z SNR matter when your ears likely can't tell the difference once you hit a certain threshold? Is it for bragging rights? A peace of mind?

These are honest questions, maybe a bit exoteric and philosophical, but honest questions nevertheless.

I have a Topping DX7PRO feeding an AHB2 in my rig. I bought the AHB2 based on Amir's measurements. It's not as powerful as my previous amp (though I don't need more than 100W/channel) but it sure is a lot smaller and easier to keep the dust off!

This articles gives Benchmark Audio's take on noise, distortion and audibility. Well worth a read:

Interpreting THD Measurements - Think dB not Percent!

Distortion measurements (THD, THD+N and IMD) are traditionally expressed in terms of percent. But what do 1%, 0.1%, 0.01% or 0.001% mean in terms of loudness or audibility? If you are like most people you just know that 0.001% is the best of the three numbers listed above. If you are a...

benchmarkmedia.com

 

[gfinlays]

Because that would be a basic system that sounds terrible compared to one with some degrees of freedom.

I'm curious as to this statement - what makes you believe this system would sound terrible?

 

[Robin L]

I'm curious as to this statement - what makes you believe this system would sound terrible?

Me too---if a computer is the source, there's all sorts of options for equalizations and such.

 

[Jimbob54]

Me too---if a computer is the source, there's all sorts of options for equalizations and such.

I think that was the point (maybe)- a well set up room, EQ as needed on a lesser system might well (should, even?) sound better than the D90+ Benchmark without.

 

[Robin L]

I think that was the point (maybe)- a well set up room, EQ as needed on a lesser system might well (should, even?) sound better than the D90+ Benchmark without.

I'm sure D90 + Benchmark is too much SINAD for most applications. On the other hand, it's like 24 bit recording, great in that there's so much more room to play with EQ and other adjustments. It used to be that getting the source right was the hard part, and such considerations as room EQ were not in play. Vinylistas can and do play with all the tiny adjustments necessary to get results with LPs. The smart ones leave it alone once they get it right. The digital camp turns to digital adjustments for tweaking. All hobbies have some element of tweaking. It's really about playing with toys more than anything else.

 

[gfinlays]

My room is set up pretty well, I think. Speaker positioning is optimal, some diffusion and absorption to control the worst reflections. Maybe I should look at some EQ to correct the room nodes too?

 

[pseudoid]

You could use an old needle printer and listen to it while the plot is being printed....

This is true!
You could actually create 'musical text' and it would become a 'print score' when the older dot-matrix printer started doing its thing!
Yeah! Okay! The SINAD, THD and even the recording/playback was pisspoor but 'music' knows no bounds....

 

[Robin L]

If measurements are everything, I've got some bad news for LP lovers

This distortion chart is for a Vertere Sabre Cartridge that goes for around $1000:

This is the frequency response of the cartridge:

This supposedly is an above average cartridge, so just imagine the measurements for something less than average.

Hi-Fi News Verdict
As you've now surmised, unless you're reading this for free at a newsstand and went straight to the conclusion, I adore the Sabre. It's richer-sounding than current MMs in my experience, but no less detailed and precise, with plenty of speed and attack for coping with transients. While there's still a magical warmth to moving-coils which separates them from moving-magnets, this narrows the gap to insignificance.

Vertere Sabre Cartridge Page 2

Tracking force was set to 2g, and it never misbehaved, even at the inner points with some deep-grooved, overly-modulated 12in singles. In other words, it behaved like a classic top-of-the-range MM, à la the venerable Shure V15s, but without emulating their now-out-of-fashion 1g downforce.

www.hifinews.com

Vertere Sabre Cartridge

This Brit-brand's range of audiophile pick-ups grows yet again with a sub-£1000 model slotting between its entry-level MM and flagship MC. Will the Sabre cut through? In the heated-up marketplace that is 'LP Playback Circa 2022', and as with the ModWright PH 9.0 phono stage, we are also...

www.hifinews.com

 

[Robbo99999]

If measurements are everything, I've got some bad news for LP lovers

This distortion chart is for a Vertere Sabre Cartridge that goes for around $1000:

View attachment 192200

This is the frequency response of the cartridge:
View attachment 192199
This supposedly is an above average cartridge, so just imagine the measurements for something less than average.

Hi-Fi News Verdict
As you've now surmised, unless you're reading this for free at a newsstand and went straight to the conclusion, I adore the Sabre. It's richer-sounding than current MMs in my experience, but no less detailed and precise, with plenty of speed and attack for coping with transients. While there's still a magical warmth to moving-coils which separates them from moving-magnets, this narrows the gap to insignificance.

Vertere Sabre Cartridge Page 2

Tracking force was set to 2g, and it never misbehaved, even at the inner points with some deep-grooved, overly-modulated 12in singles. In other words, it behaved like a classic top-of-the-range MM, à la the venerable Shure V15s, but without emulating their now-out-of-fashion 1g downforce.

www.hifinews.com

Vertere Sabre Cartridge

This Brit-brand's range of audiophile pick-ups grows yet again with a sub-£1000 model slotting between its entry-level MM and flagship MC. Will the Sabre cut through? In the heated-up marketplace that is 'LP Playback Circa 2022', and as with the ModWright PH 9.0 phono stage, we are also...

www.hifinews.com

I don't know much about vinyl really, but that's just madness!

 

[gfinlays]

If measurements are everything, I've got some bad news for LP lovers

This distortion chart is for a Vertere Sabre Cartridge that goes for around $1000:

View attachment 192200

This is the frequency response of the cartridge:
View attachment 192199
This supposedly is an above average cartridge, so just imagine the measurements for something less than average.

Hi-Fi News Verdict
As you've now surmised, unless you're reading this for free at a newsstand and went straight to the conclusion, I adore the Sabre. It's richer-sounding than current MMs in my experience, but no less detailed and precise, with plenty of speed and attack for coping with transients. While there's still a magical warmth to moving-coils which separates them from moving-magnets, this narrows the gap to insignificance.

Vertere Sabre Cartridge Page 2

Tracking force was set to 2g, and it never misbehaved, even at the inner points with some deep-grooved, overly-modulated 12in singles. In other words, it behaved like a classic top-of-the-range MM, à la the venerable Shure V15s, but without emulating their now-out-of-fashion 1g downforce.

www.hifinews.com

Vertere Sabre Cartridge

This Brit-brand's range of audiophile pick-ups grows yet again with a sub-£1000 model slotting between its entry-level MM and flagship MC. Will the Sabre cut through? In the heated-up marketplace that is 'LP Playback Circa 2022', and as with the ModWright PH 9.0 phono stage, we are also...

www.hifinews.com

Looks like some sort of resonance going on around 6 - 7 kHz.

 

[solderdude]

If measurements are everything, I've got some bad news for LP lovers

This distortion chart is for a Vertere Sabre Cartridge that goes for around $1000:

View attachment 192200

This is the frequency response of the cartridge:
View attachment 192199
This supposedly is an above average cartridge, so just imagine the measurements for something less than average.

Hi-Fi News Verdict
As you've now surmised, unless you're reading this for free at a newsstand and went straight to the conclusion, I adore the Sabre. It's richer-sounding than current MMs in my experience, but no less detailed and precise, with plenty of speed and attack for coping with transients. While there's still a magical warmth to moving-coils which separates them from moving-magnets, this narrows the gap to insignificance.

Vertere Sabre Cartridge Page 2

Tracking force was set to 2g, and it never misbehaved, even at the inner points with some deep-grooved, overly-modulated 12in singles. In other words, it behaved like a classic top-of-the-range MM, à la the venerable Shure V15s, but without emulating their now-out-of-fashion 1g downforce.

www.hifinews.com

Vertere Sabre Cartridge

This Brit-brand's range of audiophile pick-ups grows yet again with a sub-£1000 model slotting between its entry-level MM and flagship MC. Will the Sabre cut through? In the heated-up marketplace that is 'LP Playback Circa 2022', and as with the ModWright PH 9.0 phono stage, we are also...

www.hifinews.com

And then there is the RIAA correction, cartridge loading (capacitance and resistance), cable capacitance and possible rumble filters that could change the final result yet again.
Still it could sound wonderful because of all of these changes.

 

[Robin L]

I don't know much about vinyl really, but that's just madness!

This is what north of $5000 looks like:

Hi-Fi News Verdict
Boron versus Reference Ruby addresses a sonic trait that's not qualitative, so scoring is identical. This exceptional cartridge is differentiated from the Ruby by being more ear-friendly and less critical of the rest of the system. In some set-ups, then, the Ruby's arch precision, attack and speed will be preferred and exploited. For a more relaxed experience, though, the Boron is the ticket. And you saved £2000...

AVID Boron Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report This, to all intents and purposes, is AVID's flagship MC [HFN Nov '20] but with the ruby cantilever replaced by a boron rod of equivalent length. It shares the same 3x70µm 'micro-ridge' diamond, suspension and 9g bodyweight, yielding (you guessed it) the same low 9cu compliance for...

www.hifinews.com

 

[Robin L]

And then there is the RIAA correction, cartridge loading (capacitance and resistance), cable capacitance and possible rumble filters that could change the final result yet again.
Still it could sound wonderful because of all of these changes.

While I am aware that the FR can be adjusted to one's liking, I rather doubt that anything can be done about the execrable distortion measurements.

 

[solderdude]

While I am aware that the FR can be adjusted to one's liking, I rather doubt that anything can be done about the execrable distortion measurements.

True... then again many (headphone) transducers also have similar issues at the same frequencies (at higher SPL).

 

[Robin L]

True... then again many (headphone) transducers also have similar issues at the same frequencies (at higher SPL).

Doubtless---it's a transducer thing, so one can juggle the variables, but there are limits. Like the old saw about speakers and amps, you can have more volume per watt but less bass or vice versa, but you can't have small, loud and go down to 20 hz---you have to give up one of the three. I suspect there's less wiggle room with LPs and phono cartridges.

Here's a link to a review of a classic cartridge that now goes for around $600:

Denon DL-A110 Cartridge Lab Report

Lab Report This iconic MC design offers a useful 0.55mV/200ohm output (re. 1kHz/5cm/sec) – albeit with a moderate 0.85dB channel imbalance in our sample – which is some 3dB higher than the rated 0.39mV that came with the certificate. The reference response also supplied with each DL-A110 shows a...

www.hifinews.com

Compare these sorts of measurements to something like this:

Topping E30 DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping E30 USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. Unfortunately I did not get pricing information. As soon as I get it, I will post it. EDIT: just heard back. US cost is just $129.99! This is a bit of a new look...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[anotherhobby]

My room is set up pretty well, I think. Speaker positioning is optimal, some diffusion and absorption to control the worst reflections. Maybe I should look at some EQ to correct the room nodes too?

I think correcting room modes with DSP (either via EQ or room correction software) is the biggest impact you can make on the overall sound quality a system, outside of speaker/sub changes and well done room treatments. The graph below compares the room response of Dirac on a miniDSP Flex in my office (two speakers, two subs) vs. nothing other than a decent amount of room treatments. The difference between the two is massively noticeable.

 

[audioholic63]

EDIT: This comment was moved from the CXA81 review thread.

I am curious, and I am not intending to incur wrath or be branded apostate, but what do these distortion figures actually mean in terms of audio performance?

I agree that modern equipment should be able to test to a certain level of measurement (esp at that price point and the accompanying ad copy from Cambridge) but how does that translate at the speaker? Not in terms of any ethereal subjective description of the musical experience, but will it actually impede the ability to properly reproduce audio frequencies that in any way the casual listener will detect? As a vacuum tube user I understand implicitly that my amps will not measure well but I still like the sound that is coming out of the speaker.

Were I in the market for a modern stereo integrated there is nothing about the CXA81 that I find appealing either in aesthetics or perceived value for the features, regardless of the price. But in real world application is it likely to sound any different from a competing product from Denon or Yamaha or [fill in the blank]?

 

[mccririck]

Possibly you like it that sound more than something else. Does not make it better. Objectively, there's nothing in this DAC better, at 5x the price.

If you have not compared them both by listening then you do not know that.