Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[312elements]

And yet you have already seen that it's possible for your 'questions' to amount simply to something you don't know, not something 'science' -- or its interpreter -- doesn't know.

Why don't you take that to heart?

I apologize, I'm confused to what I'm supposed to take to heart.

 

[312elements]

It sounds like you're telling me to just shut up and drink the kool-aid and that the recipe for the kool-aid should not be questioned. I don't see the harm in asking about the ingredients especially when there seems to be doubt about what the contents are. HFCS and sugar are both sweeteners but they're not the same thing.

 

[Spkrdctr]

It sounds like you're telling me to just shut up and drink the kool-aid and that the recipe for the kool-aid should not be questioned. I don't see the harm in asking about the ingredients especially when there seems to be doubt about what the contents are. HFCS and sugar are both sweeteners but they're not the same thing.

Don't take offense at anyone. Most people have been giving you pretty good to great answers. An occasional poster might tweak you but don't respond and just keep learning. The learning part can save you A LOT of money. The old days of "buy and try" were very expensive days of audio. Now with the tests Amir does you can skip most buying and trying and zero on very good speakers. Remember, speakers are the one thing in audio that sound different from each other. So testing can get someone in the ballpark but the final call is the whatever the buyer likes. Then room setup begins. Lots of tinkering can be done.......

 

[312elements]

Don't take offense at anyone. Most people have been giving you pretty good to great answers. An occasional poster might tweak you but don't respond and just keep learning. The learning part can save you A LOT of money. The old days of "buy and try" were very expensive days of audio. Now with the tests Amir does you can skip most buying and trying and zero on very good speakers. Remember, speakers are the one thing in audio that sound different from each other. So testing can get someone in the ballpark but the final call is the whatever the buyer likes. Then room setup begins. Lots of tinkering can be done.......

I don't take offense. Just trying to take it all in. I also agree that in large part the advice has been beneficial. I've been trying to go out of my way to express gratitude where deserved.

I should probably just be more direct. In the image below... The darker area of the waveform but above the noise floor is the area I'm most interested in. The area 25-30db down from the peak. The answers I've received have suggested something in-between option 1) the differences are so small that it doesn't matter to most people and option 2) under no circumstances is there anything to be found there. If all DACs, amps, and speakers recreate that area in EXACTLY the same then none of this matters. If the answer is that there will be differences but they're only there if you listen for them and most people won't/don't... Well I don't see those two answers as being the same thing, but it seems generally accepted that they are. If it is such, that it's all exactly the same then I'm asking for the measurement that supports that or that measures the deviations. I haven't been presented with any information that suggests that measurement exists. It's not anyones job to provide that information to me, but this is the information that I seek none the less. I'm inclined to believe that those deviations will be higher in a speaker than a DAC or an amp but that's nothing more than an idea banging around in my brain.

 

[voodooless]

That’s not how it works. The differences are not just in the dark blue area. They can be everywhere. But the differences themselves are generally tiny: much, much, much smaller than a single pixel in your image.

 

[312elements]

That’s not how it works. The differences are not just in the dark blue area. They can be everywhere. But the differences themselves are generally tiny: much, much, much smaller than a single pixel in your image.

So how do we measure those differences to quantify the deviations. The penny is not a terribly valuable form of currency but if you've got enough of them then you potentially have buying power.

 

[antcollinet]

I agree. I think many objectivist are very concerned about differences that they cannot hear or at least cannot hear without dedicated, critical listening. There is no way to prove this of course, I have formed my opinion on myself and several of real life aquintances over the years. So it's kind of useless to suggest that maybe there is no practical difference between certain very similar studio monitors from two different manufacturers: this just gets the same "you have cloth ears" argument that you get from subjectivists about power cables.

I'm not sure I've ever heard an objectivist use that phrase except in parody.

 

[voodooless]

So how do we measure those differences to quantify the deviations.

By using tools to measure this. Ranging from simple THD+N measurements to more elaborate tools that can actually diff two audio files, as @pkane created.

 

[voodooless]

The penny is not a terribly valuable form of currency but if you've got enough of them then you potentially have buying power.

A 120 SINAD constitutes 1 penny difference in a million.

 

[danadam]

The darker area of the waveform but above the noise floor is the area I'm most interested in.

Not sure if you realize but that's just RMS value of the signal (well, most probably, I don't know which software it is but that's how they usually do it).

If all DACs, amps, and speakers recreate that area in EXACTLY the same then none of this matters.

After the DAC it is analog domain, so of course there will be measurable differences if you have measurement device that is sensitive enough.

I haven't been presented with any information that suggests that measurement exists.

If for some reason you really are interested specifically in differences between outputs of two setups then here you have power cable and interconnects:

GR Research B24 AC Cord Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the GR Research B24 AC cable. I purchased it from the company direct. It costs US $349 in the 4 foot section I purchased. As the British saying goes, the B24 "looks the part" with the thick cabling and such. But fails in actual construction...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Do interconnect cables make a difference? A null test result

With all the discussions about cables, I thought DeltaWave could be used to run a null-test comparison. Here's a quick test of three interconnects. Equipment Apogee Element24 in loopback mode @ 24/96k. Interconnects (DUTs): GLS Pro audio 6ft patch cable, Mogami Gold 6ft, and Monoprice AES/EBU...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[danadam]

It sounds like you're telling me to just shut up and drink the kool-aid and that the recipe for the kool-aid should not be questioned.

I think it's more that when you first proclaim: "We've done little more than scratch the surface." and then it turns out that you only just "discovered" FFT, then it sounds a bit grating.

I would never say such thing on brain surgery forum, for example , but that's just me.

 

[312elements]

A 120 SINAD constitutes 1 penny difference in a million.

I take no issue with SINAD measurements or questions for the science behind it.

 

[antcollinet]

I take no issue with SINAD measurements or questions for the science behind it.

Well that is a big part of the answer to your question of how we measure.

If we measure simple sine waves, and detect the amount of distortion. Especially if we measure a range of frequencies, and perhaps levels:

Then we know how much a piece of equipment distorts those sinewaves. How much noise that equipment adds to the signal.


We then know that real music will be distorted by the same amount (Frequency analysis shows that every waveform is just made of a collection of sine waves).

So we know how much noise and distortion the equipment adds to the signal. When that is below the level that even the most sensitive human ear can hear, then we know we don't have to worry about it. More, when two pieces of equipment demonstrate similarly low levels, we know that there will be no audible difference between them.

 

[voodooless]

I take no issue with SINAD measurements or questions for the science behind it.

I never said you did. Just wanted to make an illustration.

 

[312elements]

Thank you all for your help. I'm going to bounce for now and play around with the software.

 

[ahofer]

I'm not sure I've ever heard an objectivist use that phrase except in parody.

Same, although I have seen people trash designs that produce audible results close to the most admired designs here. I sort of get it - if it's well understood how to obtain the best results, why would you sell less? But it doesn't really make the product crap. It does sometimes make it overpriced.

 

[antcollinet]

A 120 SINAD constitutes 1 penny difference in a million.

And to put that into context, that is like:

Creating a stack of 1million dollars worth of pennies. It is over 93 miles high. (That is just over 388 one world trade centre towers stacked one on top of the other.

Standing back far enough so you can see the whole stack from top to bottom.

Being able to see the difference when one extra penny is stacked on the top.

 

[antcollinet]

Same, although I have seen people trash designs that produce audible results close to the most admired designs here. I sort of get it - if it's well understood how to obtain the best results, why would you sell less? But it doesn't really make the product crap. It does sometimes make it overpriced.

Agreed. I stop worrying when Sinad reaches about 80.

 

[antcollinet]

In the first place, no one is telling you to shut up. and it's not Kool-aid that you're offered; it's principles of scientific investigation. There is no harm in asking about the ingredients at all. But ..... perhaps some posters here take your posts as criticizing and/or rejecting what you're being offered.

Don't worry. Very few "understand it all". Some never will ..... and I'm one of them. But that's no basis for rejection or criticism.

SOME THINGS ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND. IT TAKES TIME AND A GREAT DEAL OF EFFORT TO MASTER THEM. THAT'S NO REASON TO NOT TRUST THE PEOPLE WHO DO UNDERSTAND THEM.

I don't understand how to read an EKG, but I trust that my doctor does.
I don't know how to purify the local water supply, but I trust the the EPA and my local water company does.
I don't understand the regulation of a nuclear power plant. but I live 90 miles from one, and I trust that the Dept. of Energy does.
I don't understand ATSC 3.0, but I watch my TV anyway without worry.
I don't understand how my cell phone signal is routed clearly, but I trust that it is because I can make and receive calls.
I don't even understand something so simple as repair of my car motor, but I trust that my mechanic does.

Some of the people who have been helping you are experts in this field. If there's anyone you can trust, you can trust them.

And yes, there are other people here who are not experts. This is the internet, for heaven's sake ..... what did you expect?

Jim

Top post

 

[bodhi]

I'm not sure I've ever heard an objectivist use that phrase except in parody.

Me neither, but that's because where I live the phrase is about "wooden" ears. Still, I'm sure you have seen subjectivist to imply that maybe one needs to be advanced enough audiophile to appreciate certain more minute differences.