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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

HarmonicTHD

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Yes, but it is me. Good old super nice guy Spkrdctr. You can trust me with absolute power. I will take care of all of your needs. Trust me!

OMG, I think I have watched too much YouTube. Luckily I don't do Tik Tok as it would put me in the nut house........
My crystal ball shows me you have great YT career ahead of you. :)
 

Mulder

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For measurements to make any sense one would have to understand what (specific) measurements can and above all can not show.
Preferably not 'partly understand' or merely think they understand. This is equally dangerous as not understanding at all.
..........
Believing is something one does when lacking profound knowledge (but thinking they have it) so one can believe cables make a difference (and in specific cases they do) and believe something is audible because they could clearly hear it without any actual proof. On the other hand... one also can believe all one needs to know is a single number which characterizes something. Think SINAD, speaker/headphone rating number etc.
..................
For setting up a studio different rules apply as that for music enjoyment in the home.
In the first case you want to work from a verified reference, in the latter case it does not matter how it measures.
It is easy to see that even "objectivists" do not always agree. You can see that not least in this forum. For example: Is SINAD really a good single measure of sound quality? Does it make sense to rank according to SINAD? How should IMD actually be measured? etc. But these are discussions concerning method rather than the more fundamental question of whether measurability is possible and meaningful. Most people in that type of discussion still proceed from the same basic premise, ie that there is something beyond the purely subjective. The vast majority of people who listen to music obviously don't care about this discussion. You probably have to be a bit more curious and exploratory to care. But there is one question that I think is a bit more urgent, and it concerns the fact that large parts of the HiFi industry want to get their customers to reject objectivity in favor of subjectivity. As you wrote in a previous post: "When one wants to change the world one has to change the way people think". Now HiFi is of course not exactly about changing the world, but I feel that the industry wants to influence us to consider HiFi subjectively, and that we will be drawn into a merry-go-round of eternal upgrades in the hunt for perfect audio.
 

fpitas

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It is easy to see that even "objectivists" do not always agree. You can see that not least in this forum. For example: Is SINAD really a good single measure of sound quality? Does it make sense to rank according to SINAD? How should IMD actually be measured? etc. But these are discussions concerning method rather than the more fundamental question of whether measurability is possible and meaningful. Most people in that type of discussion still proceed from the same basic premise, ie that there is something beyond the purely subjective. The vast majority of people who listen to music obviously don't care about this discussion. You probably have to be a bit more curious and exploratory to care. But there is one question that I think is a bit more urgent, and it concerns the fact that large parts of the HiFi industry want to get their customers to reject objectivity in favor of subjectivity. As you wrote in a previous post: "When one wants to change the world one has to change the way people think". Now HiFi is of course not exactly about changing the world, but I feel that the industry wants to influence us to consider HiFi subjectively, and that we will be drawn into a merry-go-round of eternal upgrades in the hunt for perfect audio.
Well, yes. But having said that, it's no different in essential nature than any sales pitch. Most salesmen want you to buy into their version of reality. Solve the problems they tell you that you have, and it just so happens they have the solution.
 

solderdude

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It is easy to see that even "objectivists" do not always agree. You can see that not least in this forum. For example: Is SINAD really a good single measure of sound quality? Does it make sense to rank according to SINAD? How should IMD actually be measured? etc. But these are discussions concerning method rather than the more fundamental question of whether measurability is possible and meaningful. Most people in that type of discussion still proceed from the same basic premise, ie that there is something beyond the purely subjective.

That all can be lead down to the level of understanding these measurements and what they can and can not show.

But there is one question that I think is a bit more urgent, and it concerns the fact that large parts of the HiFi industry want to get their customers to reject objectivity in favor of subjectivity. As you wrote in a previous post: "When one wants to change the world one has to change the way people think". Now HiFi is of course not exactly about changing the world, but I feel that the industry wants to influence us to consider HiFi subjectively, and that we will be drawn into a merry-go-round of eternal upgrades in the hunt for perfect audio.

Yep the sad truth is that manufacturers mostly care about sales and they can increase that by sending out gear to (mostly Youtube) reviewers that will speak positive and by using flowery wording and lots of other nonsense. I don't think the vast majority of manufacturers will ever change their ways. Its about sales.

For this reason it is a good thing that websites like ASR exist. It is not going to come from manufacturers and 'positively reporting' websites/channels.
 

mhardy6647

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Stumbled across this tidbit yesterday looking for something else entirely.
Thought it was worthy of sharing here. YMMV, though, of course. ;)

1663379706947.png

source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-High-Fidelity/60s/High-Fidelity-1966-01.pdf

... and, since they mentioned it...


1663379869711.png
 

Mulder

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Well, yes. But having said that, it's no different in essential nature than any sales pitch. Most salesmen want you to buy into their version of reality. Solve the problems they tell you that you have, and it just so happens they have the solution.
This is a bit of topic, but It may be worth pointing out that what we are talking about here is a form of manipulation of the customers/buyers. In that respect - as you point out - there is nothing new or special about the HiFi industry in particular. The perfect market is defined as: a market that is structured to have no anomalies that would otherwise interfere with the best prices being obtained. Perfect information is usually included as one of the conditions for a perfect market. BUT: It is generally not a good idea to be a seller in a perfect market, because prices are driven down so low that it is quite difficult to generate a reasonable profit. Consequently, many sellers seek out less perfect markets, where they can realize higher profit levels.
 

Spkrdctr

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This is a bit of topic, but It may be worth pointing out that what we are talking about here is a form of manipulation of the customers/buyers. In that respect - as you point out - there is nothing new or special about the HiFi industry in particular. The perfect market is defined as: a market that is structured to have no anomalies that would otherwise interfere with the best prices being obtained. Perfect information is usually included as one of the conditions for a perfect market. BUT: It is generally not a good idea to be a seller in a perfect market, because prices are driven down so low that it is quite difficult to generate a reasonable profit. Consequently, many sellers seek out less perfect markets, where they can realize higher profit levels.
Mulder, Your statement is exactly what a street hooker explained to me about how the price is set. She used different words but explained the same thing. It is amazing how some people just "get it" through experience. Good post!
 

HarmonicTHD

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Mulder, Your statement is exactly what a street hooker explained to me about how the price is set. She used different words but explained the same thing. It is amazing how some people just "get it" through experience. Good post!
:D

I really would have been surprised if those would have been her words ….. but do tell us more…. :);)
 
D

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I've seen a few YouTubers talk about how certain DACs are warmer or more clinical in their output. It would be great to see if that were even measurable. I've personally only been able to detect the "harshness" of a DAC in the higher frequencies. I am not sure if a manufacturer would purposefully attenuate some of the higher frequencies to make a "warmer" DAC or if it is just a product of the manufacturing process.
 

solderdude

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It would be even more interesting if they would be able to show it while performing a level matched blind test :)
Of course, often depending on the selected/used reconstruction filter, or lack there-off, measurable differences can certainly be shown.
These in general are not the devices those 'youtubers' talk about.
 

krabapple

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I think the younger kids are being brainwashed. They have zero knowledge of critical thinking and buy most of what they are told hook line and sinker. That is why home schooling has become such a big deal.

And you think 'critical thinking' is taught better by homeschoolers?

I'd bet that what's taught by homeschoolers is what they believe is true. Which isn't the same as teaching 'critical thinking'.
 
D

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I've seen that the majority of YouTubers do exactly that; they talk. The don't give evidence, the don't prove, they don't disprove and they don't provide data. They just talk.



I think so, too! ;)



It would be interesting for you to conduct a disciplined double-blind test to see whether that "harshness" really exists or not. Might be nice for you to know.



Either way, it would show up in measurements.

Jim
I'm just coming up with ideas for Amir or anyone with an Audio Precision Analyzer :) . Audioholics has basically torn down the ideas of $5000 cables via measurements, and I want to see the truth (and extent of the truth) come out about how DACs sound from a sound signature perspective. Amir covers the same key points about a DAC to describe it's performance, but in the videos and written reviews that I've seen, there isn't a ton of talk about the sound signature (and maybe good DACs don't have a sound signature, maybe that is the point!).

As for my own testing for my own DACs, I've wired my Topping E50 (cheap but decent measuring DAC) and my PC audio into the Topping L50 headphone amp and need to switch back and forth on a routine basis. PC audio is really bad, so it's not anything special that I've been able to look down and notice why things sound so poorly. That being said, I honestly don't know how great a difference in "warmth" there would be between 2 actually good DACs, lol. I think we are on the same page about wanting repeatable and measurable data for whatever we are analyzing.

Also thank you Jim for the phrase by phrase breakdown of my post. I'm not really trying to make a point of argument, or even discussion, but rather a request to see these things measured.
 
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solderdude

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Consider this.
Having a sound signature would mean the signal is different. Otherwise there can not be a difference.
This, obviously, can be shown to exist by golden eared folks.
Let them perform this in front of an engineer that knows how to test and can measure or...
Use nulling.
The problem here is there will always be some differences when nulling and those nulling results would have to be analyzed.
Then the null difference should be added or subtracted from the file one of the signals and see if that can explain the difference.
A level matched AB(X) should be able to show this using the considered 'best' DAC that supposedly can 'resolve' the 'worse' DAC can't.

Will someone go through all the trouble and challenges just to prove they can hear the impossible ?
Most likely not... they know they can hear it and others know they are full of it.
 
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antcollinet

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I'm just coming up with ideas for Amir or anyone with an Audio Precision Analyzer :) . Audioholics has basically torn down the ideas of $5000 cables via measurements, and I want to see the truth (and extent of the truth) come out about how DACs sound from a sound signature perspective. Amir covers the same key points about a DAC to describe it's performance, but in the videos and written reviews that I've seen, there isn't a ton of talk about the sound signature (and maybe good DACs don't have a sound signature, maybe that is the point!).

As for my own testing for my own DACs, I've wired my Topping E50 (cheap but decent measuring DAC) and my PC audio into the Topping L50 headphone amp and need to switch back and forth on a routine basis. PC audio is really bad, so it's not anything special that I've been able to look down and notice why things sound so poorly. That being said, I honestly don't know how great a difference in "warmth" there would be between 2 actually good DACs, lol. I think we are on the same page about wanting repeatable and measurable data for whatever we are analyzing.

Also thank you Jim for the phrase by phrase breakdown of my post. I'm not really trying to make a point of argument, or even discussion, but rather a request to see these things measured.
They already are measured.

The only things in the output of a DAC that can create a "sound signature" are frequency/amplitude (frequency response), noise and distortion. All of these are measured. Any genuinely audible difference has to show up in those measurements.

To put it another way - in a DAC that has flat frequency response, and inaudible distortion and noise (pretty much all those in the top half of the DAC chart), where do you think a "sound signature" can come from?
 

HarmonicTHD

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I'm just coming up with ideas for Amir or anyone with an Audio Precision Analyzer :) . Audioholics has basically torn down the ideas of $5000 cables via measurements, and I want to see the truth (and extent of the truth) come out about how DACs sound from a sound signature perspective. Amir covers the same key points about a DAC to describe it's performance, but in the videos and written reviews that I've seen, there isn't a ton of talk about the sound signature (and maybe good DACs don't have a sound signature, maybe that is the point!).

As for my own testing for my own DACs, I've wired my Topping E50 (cheap but decent measuring DAC) and my PC audio into the Topping L50 headphone amp and need to switch back and forth on a routine basis. PC audio is really bad, so it's not anything special that I've been able to look down and notice why things sound so poorly. That being said, I honestly don't know how great a difference in "warmth" there would be between 2 actually good DACs, lol. I think we are on the same page about wanting repeatable and measurable data for whatever we are analyzing.

Also thank you Jim for the phrase by phrase breakdown of my post. I'm not really trying to make a point of argument, or even discussion, but rather a request to see these things measured.
As solderdude put it. For difference to exist the signal must be different and the difference must be audible. There is research of human hearing abilities and yes there is a grey zone and the there is a zone beyond doubt that differences can be perceived under the very best circumstances, let alone for music reproduction. This might tell you more:


Also you can test your own abilities. The user pkane provides a webpage with hearing tests. It is humbling and most are far far away from even the above mentioned grey zone.
 

Spkrdctr

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Will someone go through all the trouble and challenges just to prove they can hear the impossible ?
Most likely not... they know they can hear it and others know they are full of it.
ASR wisdom right there! I will say almost all DACs sound the same. There I said it. Now anyone is free to prove me wrong. I'm waiting........


I hope our ASR regulars see the humor in that statement. I make the claim with zero evidence and put the work on the other side to prove me wrong. My level of work=zero. Their level of work is many hours or even days. I just might have audiophile blood in me. :)
 
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krabapple

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As for my own testing for my own DACs, I've wired my Topping E50 (cheap but decent measuring DAC) and my PC audio into the Topping L50 headphone amp and need to switch back and forth on a routine basis. PC audio is really bad,

It is?

What do you mean by 'PC audio'? A digital signal out to a DAC, or analog out from the PC's DAC? Neither should be 'really bad'.
 

Heat11

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Amir! i am working on some research regarding the audiophile discourse community and could use some feedback from you on this topic. let me know if you are interested. i sure hope he still reads this mammoth chain
 
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