• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

BillyChilly

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2022
Messages
15
Likes
8
uh....hahahaha...BAHHAHAHAHA!!! Just tell the next curious person that these ideas on "Are measurements everything or nothing" only apply to consumer audio products. Easy peasy. Simple pimple. Done.

Thanks to those that have attempted to remotely entertain my questions and ideas. They were honest queries, and I am anything but scared to ask my questions. I encourage others to ask their questions, too, and then question the answers.

To those more inclined to gaslighting behavior, and what's ABUNDANTLY clear to me is that there's quite a bit of that here, shame on you. I can easily handle it (and easily handle you), but it is the wrong thing to do to anyone, anywhere. Gaslighting is not a part of learning, growth, fun, or health. Instead, it's a form of bullying and abuse.

Forever this time, I'm digressing. Please be respectful and don't reply. Unless you must have the last word -- which would not surprise me, AT ALL. So edgy. I gasp, but also laugh at your pathetic misery.
 

AdamG

Proving your point makes it “Science”.
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
4,636
Likes
14,918
Location
Reality
Let’s move on from the personal commentary. Thread ban and Warning have been issued. Please don’t respond to posts like this. You are only feeding the Troll the attention they seek. Please and thank you.
 

Geert

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
1,937
Likes
3,526
@AdamG247. Can't we reformulate the thread title so it's a bit less polarising? Like it is now it's setup as a troll magnet.
 

TheBatsEar

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
3,084
Likes
4,962
Location
Germany
@AdamG247. Can't we reformulate the thread title so it's a bit less polarising? Like it is now it's setup as a troll magnet.
Or we leave it and call it a troll containment thread internally. Moderation can harvest every few days and keep the rest of the forum calm.;)

A troll vacuum, if you will.:D
 

AdamG

Proving your point makes it “Science”.
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 3, 2021
Messages
4,636
Likes
14,918
Location
Reality
Or we leave it and call it a troll containment thread internally. Moderation can harvest every few days and keep the rest of the forum calm.;)

A troll vacuum, if you will.:D
This was/is the intent. Also a place to redirect similar posts from official Review threads.….However, we can also find, nurture and guide honest inquiring minded new members. So we should also try to be welcoming and respectful to the new members seeking the unblemished truth about Audio Science and it’s application results. Smoking out bad faith Trolls is but one function. ;)
 

magicscreen

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
300
Likes
176
I have listened now to the Jds Labs Atom and the Loxjie D10. Using a Grado headphone.
They have totally different sound.
They have similar good measurement.
So measurements are good for nothing.
It would be better make a warning about the Atom because it has no metal chassis.
Of course Amir did not have this knowledge. He should learn first the basics of electronics.
 

TheBatsEar

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
3,084
Likes
4,962
Location
Germany
Of course Amir did not have this knowledge. He should learn first the basics of electronics.
1388537225256.gif
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,209
Likes
7,588
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
I have listened now to the Jds Labs Atom and the Loxjie D10. Using a Grado headphone.
They have totally different sound.
They have similar good measurement.
So measurements are good for nothing.
It would be better make a warning about the Atom because it has no metal chassis.
Of course Amir did not have this knowledge. He should learn first the basics of electronics.
Before you type another word, please have the decency to at least read this first:

 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
I have listened now to the Jds Labs Atom and the Loxjie D10. Using a Grado headphone.

I have never listened to either of them. And if I did I would not be using a Grado.

They have totally different sound.

When you drop them on the floor from 1 meter ... sure.

They have similar good measurement.

Spot on. Both measure pretty well.

So measurements are good for nothing.

I want to order 5 meters of rope. The seller does not measure the length and just pulls some rope and gives it to me.
I end up half a meter short... yes, measurements are good for nothing... thanks for nothing.

It would be better make a warning about the Atom because it has no metal chassis.

Warning... Atom contains plastic parts... do not listen to it... not suited for magicscreens under 5 y.o.
Of course Amir did not have this knowledge.

No I reckon he did not drop both from 1m to find out how they sound.

He should learn first the basics of electronics.

U = I x R
 
Last edited:

Awsmone

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
68
Likes
67
I stumbled across this thread, been unwell, so just getting back into blogging again
I follow anti-flat earth debates, and note a remarkable similarity in these debates, ie flat earth and audio subjectists

i would consider this is a similar thought process( or lack their of) which appears a clash between perception bias and objective laws

in flat earth it’s

you cannot see the earth is round ( ie I can hear the differences)
all photos of it being round are either fabricated or distorted ( measurements don’t show everything)
your an idiot if you hang onto globe beliefs ( like you obviously cannot hear)
gravity doesn’t exist, it’s density ( your electrical engineering principles are not what’s important)
the earth cannot be spinning it’s too fast ( confusing linear speed with angular…..grounding boxes work)
the Sun isn’t 90 million miles away ( measurements mean nothing)
the ball earth model cannot explain eclipses( ur measurements don’t explain what I hear )
corpuscular rays prove the sun is close ( i Can hear the difference)

the one I have the most trouble understanding

we cannot measure a difference, but someone has been able to engineer a product that’s better, without an objective measure ?
power cord make a difference because I perceive it, and your measurements are incorrect, and your knowledge of electrical systems, they just don’t work here ( or should it be hear?)

in flat earth it’s

yeah we cannot make a model of flat earth that explains the seasons let alone eclipses but the globe model is wrong even though it predicts all these things with incredible accuracy because I cannot see it’s spherical
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,874
Likes
6,672
Location
UK
I stumbled across this thread, been unwell, so just getting back into blogging again
I follow anti-flat earth debates, and note a remarkable similarity in these debates, ie flat earth and audio subjectists

i would consider this is a similar thought process( or lack their of) which appears a clash between perception bias and objective laws

in flat earth it’s

you cannot see the earth is round ( ie I can hear the differences)
all photos of it being round are either fabricated or distorted ( measurements don’t show everything)
your an idiot if you hang onto globe beliefs ( like you obviously cannot hear)
gravity doesn’t exist, it’s density ( your electrical engineering principles are not what’s important)
the earth cannot be spinning it’s too fast ( confusing linear speed with angular…..grounding boxes work)
the Sun isn’t 90 million miles away ( measurements mean nothing)
the ball earth model cannot explain eclipses( ur measurements don’t explain what I hear )
corpuscular rays prove the sun is close ( i Can hear the difference)

the one I have the most trouble understanding

we cannot measure a difference, but someone has been able to engineer a product that’s better, without an objective measure ?
power cord make a difference because I perceive it, and your measurements are incorrect, and your knowledge of electrical systems, they just don’t work here ( or should it be hear?)

in flat earth it’s

yeah we cannot make a model of flat earth that explains the seasons let alone eclipses but the globe model is wrong even though it predicts all these things with incredible accuracy because I cannot see it’s spherical
Really! :D

(It's good that you're feeling better now after being unwell, but following flat earth debates & including analogies to it.......have a look in some of the other threads, I'm sure there's some interesting stuff to read & comment on)
 

Waxx

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
1,931
Likes
7,688
Location
Wodecq, Hainaut, Belgium
I don’t know if it’s said before (I did not read the whole tread to be honest) but I want to put a little remark about audio subjectivists. You got mainly 2 categories

The first one are those who say measurements are useless and tell nothing, and believe in audio magic and snake oil stuff (You know what I mean).

The second (where I’m one off) are those who believe in measurements but think subjective personal taste is not reflected in it, at least not in the measurements down here. But that does not mean that the measurements are useless, they are very useful also for judging gear. It’s just that we search different things than gain on a wire. And I personally also believe that even what I search is measurable. I don’t have the knowledge to do it myself, but I’m a guy with a scientific approach to things in general, and think everything in live can be analyzed and measured.

I like tubes and class A transistor amps because of the harmonic distortion, but I don’t like other forms of distortion. I know they are technically not as good as very low distortion amps (mostly class D or class AB), but they make me enjoy music more. The same can be said about speakers (I have a personal subjective preference house curve that is very close to flat but not flat). Those preferences are neither objective nor universal. They are personal choices. And even tube amps or class A amps can be judged on measurements, and you will see good ones and bad ones in those measurements (I see it at least).

But this site is not about that, it’s about objective and standardized measurements and tests of gear to see if they deliver what the makes say they should. They are a kind of reference on which I and other people, even with a subjective taste that is different than that of Amir & co, can judge what we want. Subjective reviews like we had in the past (and still have) or bloated measurements are useless for that. Just like snake oil stuff. So even many with a subjective taste rate this very high and think this site is a great evolution in hifi, because it forces the brands to level up the quality, even on devices that are more aimed at people who have a subjective taste.
 

Awsmone

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
68
Likes
67
Really! :D

(It's good that you're feeling better now after being unwell, but following flat earth debates & including analogies to it.......have a look in some of the other threads, I'm sure there's some interesting stuff to read & comment on)
many thanks

I read Amin’s reviews, and love his debunks :) I even convinced a guy with a $100k of pcs they were rubbish :)
 

Awsmone

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
68
Likes
67
I don’t know if it’s said before (I did not read the whole tread to be honest) but I want to put a little remark about audio subjectivists. You got mainly 2 categories

The first one are those who say measurements are useless and tell nothing, and believe in audio magic and snake oil stuff (You know what I mean).

The second (where I’m one off) are those who believe in measurements but think subjective personal taste is not reflected in it, at least not in the measurements down here. But that does not mean that the measurements are useless, they are very useful also for judging gear. It’s just that we search different things than gain on a wire. And I personally also believe that even what I search is measurable. I don’t have the knowledge to do it myself, but I’m a guy with a scientific approach to things in general, and think everything in live can be analyzed and measured.

I like tubes and class A transistor amps because of the harmonic distortion, but I don’t like other forms of distortion. I know they are technically not as good as very low distortion amps (mostly class D or class AB), but they make me enjoy music more. The same can be said about speakers (I have a personal subjective preference house curve that is very close to flat but not flat). Those preferences are neither objective nor universal. They are personal choices. And even tube amps or class A amps can be judged on measurements, and you will see good ones and bad ones in those measurements (I see it at least).

But this site is not about that, it’s about objective and standardized measurements and tests of gear to see if they deliver what the makes say they should. They are a kind of reference on which I and other people, even with a subjective taste that is different than that of Amir & co, can judge what we want. Subjective reviews like we had in the past (and still have) or bloated measurements are useless for that. Just like snake oil stuff. So even many with a subjective taste rate this very high and think this site is a great evolution in hifi, because it forces the brands to level up the quality, even on devices that are more aimed at people who have a subjective taste.
Studies show second harmonic and other low level harmonics are well tolerated by listeners , higher level harmonic are not, in addition there is masking with multi tones being played , doesn’t mean it’s good just tolerated , where it becomes more obvious is when these distortion producers get loud , and the whole musical palette “congeals“
 

Shadrach1

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2022
Messages
24
Likes
32
In reply to amir’s topic start:
Should we consider budget?
Imho money well spend does get you better sq
I somehow feel this forum is a place where people on a budget get together for comfort.
I do agree it is good to be critical but wonder what real world experience amir and his hardcore followers have, anyone of you downgraded bigtime because they could without loss in fidelity?
Yes, I have.
I'm making a reasonably detailed post about it. You may find it an interesting read when it's done.
The downgrade was in financial terms and brought about by a change in my living circumstances.
I went from a system where the original amplifier and a few cables was a similar price to the entire new system. I didn't keep a single item of the original setup except the headphones.
I put the new system together without auditioning any of it's componants and based on the measurements done by Amir and his listening impressions.
If you still read this forum and I remember I'll tag you when I've finished the post.
 

Awsmone

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2019
Messages
68
Likes
67
Yes, I have.
I'm making a reasonably detailed post about it. You may find it an interesting read when it's done.
The downgrade was in financial terms and brought about by a change in my living circumstances.
I went from a system where the original amplifier and a few cables was a similar price to the entire new system. I didn't keep a single item of the original setup except the headphones.
I put the new system together without auditioning any of it's componants and based on the measurements done by Amir and his listening impressions.
If you still read this forum and I remember I'll tag you when I've finished the post.
I feel like you are a student of Yoda ….
and you‘re trying to feel the force

it’s so exciting

I will tell u a secret

80% of the sound has nothing to do with the measurements in an ordinary room !
 
Last edited:

Shadrach1

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2022
Messages
24
Likes
32
I feel like your a student of Yoda ….
and your trying to feel the force

it’s so exciting

I will tell u a secret

80% of the sound has nothing to do with the measurements in an ordinary room !
Perhaps it would be better to wait and read the post before commenting.
 

Killingbeans

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
4,089
Likes
7,547
Location
Bjerringbro, Denmark.
we cannot measure a difference, but someone has been able to engineer a product that’s better, without an objective measure ?

That's where the ego stroking comes in. They believe that sighted listening can be used as a near infinitely sensitive measuring instrument leaving all scientific discoveries in the dust. The only thing that beats it in precision is the positive customer feedback :facepalm:
 
Top Bottom