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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

alitomr1979

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There seem to be many that are determined to be, and stay stuck. That's due to my lack of empathy? If I lead the horse to the water, and he doesn't drink...maybe he's just a dumb or stubborn horse.

The lack of empathy shows in your post. I don’t want to be rude, sorry if it came out like that. The point is that you are leading the horse to the water ASSUMING he is thirsty and when he shows you he is not, you call him stubborn and/or dumb.

I think that is why when in your position, we are stuck.
 

alitomr1979

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I think assuming horses/people who don’t drink the water are not thirsty puts us in a better position than assuming they are dumb because they don’t want to drink. No?
 

audio2design

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Perhaps a better analogy than the horse is the one of the frog put into cold water that is then raised to a boil. You keep telling the frog, dude you are going to die, get out. The frog says no, I am fine, I am going to stay.

If I grab the frog and yank him out of the water and save his life, am I lacking in empathy?

I won't apologize for yanking "ignorant" audiophiles out of the soon to be boiling water especially when they are telling other audiophiles there is nothing to worry about, the water is fine, you should jump in.
 

BDWoody

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I think assuming horses/people who don’t drink the water are not thirsty puts us in a better position than assuming they are dumb because they don’t want to drink. No?

Generally (I said generally...) folks are left alone unless they see themselves as evangelicals for the cause, then they try to shit in the water and tell you it tastes better that way...
 

alitomr1979

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Perhaps a better analogy than the horse is the one of the frog put into cold water that is then raised to a boil. You keep telling the frog, dude you are going to die, get out. The frog says no, I am fine, I am going to stay.

If I grab the frog and yank him out of the water and save his life, am I lacking in empathy?

I won't apologize for yanking "ignorant" audiophiles out of the soon to be boiling water especially when they are telling other audiophiles there is nothing to worry about, the water is fine, you should jump in.

That’s a better analogy for you to feel good about saving “stupid frogs”. Hahaha.
 

BDWoody

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danadam

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Surely there is plenty of subjective information that has value, especially when gathered from many listeners in a controlled setting
Yes, and subjectivist usually complain that this is just average and it doesn't apply to them because they are exceptional :)
even if the setting isn't a controlled one, it doesn't mean what a listener hears isn't related to actual playback, as a matter of course
Sure, but in this case we can't tell if it is or it isn't, so what's the value of such test?
A subjective opinion can be purely a figment on one's imagination and some people are more imaginative than others, but there are many occasions when humans have to trust their instincts before an abundance of data comes back to affirm something
Again, sure, but we need a way to distinguish the first case from the second one.
If a subjective reviewer is tested and it is found their opinions seem to chime with the objective data
That's a big "if". Show me which one were.
This is an argument, to paraphrase, one hears a lot
Where? :)
As @Killingbeans said already, that's more like interpretation than a paraphrase. Or somehow we are reading different posts.
 

Inner Space

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Perhaps a better analogy than the horse is the one of the frog put into cold water that is then raised to a boil.
Like many oft-repeated myths, this one is entirely untrue. Hundreds of refs on the net will confirm. Depending on the topology of the vessel, the frog may be unable to escape, but if it can, it will, every single time. It's as bad as the "aviation engineers say bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly" example, I'm afraid.
 

alitomr1979

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I think both analogies have some limitations. The discussion is that some people THINK all there is to know about sound IS measured and published. Others may not be very articulate to express it but basically think ALL is not measured and/or published, and think there is value in discussing and hearing people’s subjective opinions about audio gear. Some on the extreme dare to say measurements are basically shit and should be avoided because they are worthless.

When you are I the first group, there is not much you can do to swing people in the other two groups to your direction. Really. And in my opinion o y one of those are wrong, and it’s those trying to convince others of their preferences.

What you like is what is best for you. You are better off listening to people’s subjective opinions if those people share your taste, what you seek in audio reproduction, what impacts you more, than seeing a few graphs. That’s the value of subjective opinions and reviews when it comes to something as subjective as enjoyment of art.

I have an example. Bowers and Wilkins 706 s2 vs KEF R3. The latter technically superior than the former. Right? Flattest response, less distortion, better multi tone performance, more efficient. Right? Well, there are a ton of people who prefer the 706s2. I ordered a pair the other day and my cousin and uncle received it and they say I should be ready to send the R3 to whatever place I use for backup/secondary speakers. That happens all the time. I don’t understand why we need so badly to have everybody have the same opinions or even tastes. I mean, it would be convenient and the world would be far easier if we could, but it would be something very different than the world we know.

Some people want to hear what others have to opine about audio equipment, and to them, those opinions, when next to some kind of reference (what they opine about x speaker that I know well), is even more useful than graphs that most people think understand but actually don’t, because you are either well versed in acoustics/electronics or in music (as a musician). That is OK. You are satisfied with the “best” measuring whatever? That’s ok too. Be happy.

Few things in the world are binary. Some people including some claiming to be very scientific about everything don’t recognize this and that all or nothing approach limits everything…

Subjective opinions are a form of measurement. A measure is something that reduces uncertainty. Let people have their opinions and yes, well they tell you FOR THEM that 100usd Bluetooth speaker is better than your 1k one, it’s them who are feeling better about it. The only thing we need to acknowledge is that: it’s better FOR THEM.
 
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I think both analogies have some limitations. The discussion is that some people THINK all there is to know about sound IS measured and published. Others may not be very articulate to express it but basically think ALL is not measured and/or published, and think there is value in discussing and hearing people’s subjective opinions about audio gear. Some on the extreme dare to say measurements are basically shit and should be avoided because they are worthless.

When you are I the first group, there is not much you can do to swing people in the other two groups to your direction. Really. And in my opinion o y one of those are wrong, and it’s those trying to convince others of their preferences.

What you like is what is best for you. You are better off listening to people’s subjective opinions if those people share your taste, what you seek in audio reproduction, what impacts you more, than seeing a few graphs. That’s the value of subjective opinions and reviews when it comes to something as subjective as enjoyment of art.

I have an example. Bowers and Wilkins 706 s2 vs KEF R3. The latter technically superior than the former. Right? Flattest response, less distortion, better multi tone performance, more efficient. Right? Well, there are a ton of people who prefer the 706s2. I ordered a pair the other day and my cousin and uncle received it and they say I should be ready to send the R3 to whatever place I use for backup/secondary speakers. That happens all the time. I don’t understand why we need so badly to have everybody have the same opinions or even tastes. I mean, it would be convenient and the world would be far easier if we could, but it would be something very different than the world we know.

Some people want to hear what others have to opine about audio equipment, and to them, those opinions, when next to some kind of reference (what they opine about x speaker that I know well), is even more useful than graphs that most people think understand but actually don’t, because you are either well versed in acoustics/electronics or in music (as a musician). That is OK. You are satisfied with the “best” measuring whatever? That’s ok too. Be happy.

Few things in the world are binary. Some people including some claiming to be very scientific about everything don’t recognize this and that all or nothing approach limits everything…

Subjective opinions are a form of measurement. A measure is something that reduces uncertainty. Let people have their opinions and yes, well they tell you FOR THEM that 100usd Bluetooth speaker is better than your 1k one, it’s them who are feeling better about it. The only thing we need to acknowledge is that: it’s better for them.
the problem is: for those guys everything which is not measureable is placebo, thats the real problem here, they are in a massive deny about everything they cant "explain", i bet this has a way greater effect then placebo :)
also because, atleast me (and i bet many "true" audiophiles too) go to a subjective listening test way more objective than the "science guys" here, because they have a mindset of just denying things that cant be measured right from the start, and/or dont have the right gear to evaluate those things, if i cant hear them i would also believe they dont matter
 

audio2design

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I have an example. Bowers and Wilkins 706 s2 vs KEF R3. The latter technically superior than the former. Right? Flattest response, less distortion, better multi tone performance, more efficient. Right? Well, there are a ton of people who prefer the 706s2. I ordered a pair the other day and my cousin and uncle received it and they say I should be ready to send the R3 to whatever place I use for backup/secondary speakers. That happens all the time. I don’t understand why we need so badly to have everybody have the same opinions or even tastes. I mean, it would be convenient and the world would be far easier if we could, but it would be something very different than the world we know.

You think you have an example that proves something that no one is really arguing about, i.e. preference but at the same time argues from a standpoint of lack of knowledge, i.e. no speaker can be fully evaluated without placing it in the intended room given the room was not designed for that speaker.
 

alitomr1979

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the problem is: for those guys everything which is not measureable is placebo, thats the real problem here, they are in a massive deny about everything they cant "explain", i bet this has a way greater effect then placebo :)
also because, atleast me (and i bet many "true" audiophiles too) go to a subjective listening test way more objective than the "science guys" here, because they have a mindset of just denying things that cant be measured right from the start, and/or dont have the right gear to evaluate those things, if i cant hear them i would also believe they dont matter

As I said, I think I implied, I think those things CAN be measured and some probably are, but some of them ar e simply not published because they are irrelevant or incomprehensible to the vast majority of consumers, and also they could be a part of the competitive advantage/edge some developers/manufactures have.

There are more things involve than what is actually published. And then, to make things not complicated, COMPLEX, you have to account by what people are perceiving and how their brains respond to that (the amount of pleasure or displeasure it signals). I wish it were that easy as 5 measurements, with all the importance those measurements do have to understand many things of what’s going on with certain equipment.
 

alitomr1979

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You think you have an example that proves something that no one is really arguing about, i.e. preference but at the same time argues from a standpoint of lack of knowledge, i.e. no speaker can be fully evaluated without placing it in the intended room given the room was not designed for that speaker.

Your inference that I am saying in that post that speakers can be evaluated without placing it in the intended room came from your imagination, not my post.

Why do you need that?
 

audio2design

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the problem is: for those guys everything which is not measureable is placebo, thats the real problem here, they are in a massive deny about everything they cant "explain", i bet this has a way greater effect then placebo :)
also because, atleast me (and i bet many "true" audiophiles too) go to a subjective listening test way more objective than the "science guys" here, because they have a mindset of just denying things that cant be measured right from the start, and/or dont have the right gear to evaluate those things, if i cant hear them i would also believe they dont matter

This post says far more about you as an individual than I could ever say by refuting your "arguments".
 

danadam

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I don't understand the, to my mind false, binary split. Surely there is plenty of subjective information that has value, especially when gathered from many listeners in a controlled setting;
Also, and sorry if I'm misread what you are trying to say, but are you arguing that objectivists (even hard objectivists) are dismissing results of controlled listening tests?
 

audio2design

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Your inference that I am saying in that post that speakers can be evaluated without placing it in the intended room came from your imagination, not my post.

Why do you need that?

Because that is exactly what you stated even if indirectly. You talked purely about preference with no indication of knowledge or awareness of the objective performance in room and how that would relate to preference.

It's like my experience with people who claim they like "analog" because digital is harsh. Invariably I find their "analog" system objectively flawed, cartridge/phono mismatch being one of the most common. I map that response to an equalizer and they are amazed the digital is not "harsh" any more. While there have been big strides in digital in the last 15 years the bigger change is acclimatization.
 
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