Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[BDWoody]

i dont even know what else to say

Please 8lb 6oz Baby Jesus, let this be true.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Please 8lb 6oz Baby Jesus, let this be true.

thanks for the laugh
i think that was even a good demonstration of how one proof doesnt tell the whole story

 

[Holmz]

So you have some evidence to back up these claims?

Maybe the manufacturers have these data for power cords and fuses?

 

[Firefly00]

Maybe the manufacturers have these data for power cords and fuses?

Should be pretty easy to prove, if it exists! If it could be measured, then manufacturers would have it all over their product pages

 

[DanielT]

It is obvious that you can hear difference (what else do you have ears for), the question is only when and at what level you hear difference.

Is there no dB test where you can change the dB between 0.5-5 dB to test when you hear a difference?I remember seeing one but I did not save the link. It was some kind of test you could do, you heard signals then guessed if there was any difference in dB.Someone who knows it?.

 

[Pdxwayne]

It is obvious that you can hear difference (what else do you have ears for), the question is only when and at what level you hear difference.

Is there no dB test where you can change the dB between 0.5-5 dB to test when you hear a difference?I remember seeing one but I did not save the link. It was some kind of test you could do, you heard signals then guessed if there was any difference in dB.Someone who knows it?.

See https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_index.php

 

[Deleted member 23982]

See https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_index.php

Blind Testing a 0.5 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

yep its a great site, its the site that got me into "does absolute polarity matter"
got 10/10 with 0,5db (after 2-3 test runs, i actually had to do some listening training to get that result)
0,2db is though tho, and i also noticed that its way easier to hear "louder", "flat" and "quiter" are way harder to distingiush

but i have to say, if i color the sound of my speakers with 0,2-0,5db higher mids its way easier to hear (for me) than this sinewave test
maybe i should repeat the test on my monitors, i just did it with cheap headphones

 

[DanielT]

See https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_index.php

Great! Thanks!

I'll test it today ... not... because I am hungover (can not concentrate fully)...but tomorrow.

 

[Galliardist]

exactly this i also just gave up on a "superior" desktop-pc music setup, hence the rather cheap soundcard with cheap (but for the price alright) 30€ headphones because it gets the job done (specially for youtube videos and stuff like that where audio quality doesnt matter at all....) tho its miles away from my main setup and i pretty much cant distingiush the things/differences i can hear on my main setup, maybe i would if i start hunting weak-links there too, pretty much i could but in the end not "really" worth it because of crappy/noisy pc hardware and windows and i wouldnt get it to same level as my main setup anyway
and i pretty much get it when people say "they cant hear a difference" because pretty certainly i couldnt either on your setup...

Yesterday, I changed a compact fluorescent bulb. It blew after seven years. Previous incandescent bulbs blew much quicker and cost ten times as much to run.
I used my home internet connection on my PC. Both are exponentially more powerful than twenty years ago, yet cost me a fraction of the price in real terms. My 4K TV - put that against the best set from 1990, or the equivalently priced TV of 2000, the difference is laughable.

Given the task to be done, it is absolutely no surprise at all that we can have a near-perfect DAC for next to no money given the advances made in technology this century. In fact it seems rather bizarre to suppose otherwise. Or indeed to think that you can upgrade (in the sense of better sound) a component that is audibly indistinguishable from the source.

 

[DanielT]

Blind Testing a 0.5 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

yep its a great site, its the site that got me into "does absolute polarity matter"
got 10/10 with 0,5db (after 2-3 test runs, i actually had to do some listening training to get that result)
0,2db is though tho, and i also noticed that its way easier to hear "louder", "flat" and "quiter" are way harder to distingiush

but i have to say, if i color the sound of my speakers with 0,2-0,5db higher mids its way easier to hear (for me) than this sinewave test
maybe i should repeat the test on my monitors, i just did it with cheap headphones

Impressive, 0,5 dB and all right in the test.

I assume that if you repeat the test, new combinations are randomly selected, so it really is a blind test?

I'll check it out tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Given the task to be done, it is absolutely no surprise at all that we can have a near-perfect DAC for next to no money given the advances made in technology this century.

agreed, i also hear a clear difference of masters from like 90s/00s/10s, specially since around 2017/2018 masters/albums (can) sound very good thats also the only reason why i enjoy modern music more beside loadness war... i wish some old classics had that quality of todays song atleast remasters improve it a little bit, even if loadness gets worse.... (nirvana`s - nevermind 2021 remaster for example )

I assume that if you repeat the test, new combinations are randomly selected, so it really is in a blind test?

yes, it is random, you can get "louder" 3 times in a row for example, there is no pattern you can learn

 

[Pdxwayne]

Blind Testing a 0.5 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

yep its a great site, its the site that got me into "does absolute polarity matter"
got 10/10 with 0,5db (after 2-3 test runs, i actually had to do some listening training to get that result)
0,2db is though tho, and i also noticed that its way easier to hear "louder", "flat" and "quiter" are way harder to distingiush

but i have to say, if i color the sound of my speakers with 0,2-0,5db higher mids its way easier to hear (for me) than this sinewave test
maybe i should repeat the test on my monitors, i just did it with cheap headphones

Nice to see someone that could pass 0.5db.

I could passed 0.5 with both headphones and stereo system.

Have you seen my listening teats results at
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tracking-my-listening-tests.24364/post-822052 ?

It would be nice if you can also start a thread to track your results, try including screenshots if possible.

 

[DanielT]

agreed, i also hear a clear difference of masters from like 90s/00s/10s, specially since around 2017/2018 masters/albums (can) sound very good thats also the only reason why i enjoy modern music more beside loadness war... i wish some old classics had that quality of todays song atleast remasters improve it a little bit, even if loadness gets worse.... (nirvana`s - nevermind 2021 remaster for example )


yes, it is random, you can get "louder" 3 times in a row for example, there is no pattern you can learn

Great, damn what good, you gave me an idea! Today due to hungover so I will only play destroyed compressed, lodeness music at low volume. That kind of even porridge my ears will accept today. Sensible music experiences may be for tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

lodeness ruined music at low volume

i actually think its just made for that, so it sounds better on "casual volume" radios, if you listen at 85db (or higher volumes in general) it really begins to show how awful it sounds, specially with dynamic-compressed voices ( "ed sheran - shiver" comes to my mind )

actually a metal listener, so im somewhat accustomed to low dynamic tracks... i actually find it way more annoying if tracks (specially old ones, specially classic) have like their peaks at subjectivly -20db, because i dont wanna turn up the speakers just to get blown away by the next normal -3db track... (i actually just listen to them as they are then, i dont play with the volume knob while listening... i just set the max. volume )
for me its good practice to put song peaks close to 0db and often (newer) people switch this one up with "loadness war"

you also notice this on youtube alot, people wanna do a "favor" while making the volume quite or not as loud, tho you have to turn up your volume, just to get blown away by the next normal volume video again (so its not a favor, at all)

 

[DanielT]

i actually think its just made for that, so it sounds better on "casual volume" radios, if you listen at 85db (or higher volumes in general) it really begins to show how awful it sounds, specially with dynamic-compressed voices ( "ed sheran - shiver" comes to my mind )

actually a metal listener, so im somewhat accustomed to low dynamic tracks... i actually find it way more annoying if tracks (specially old ones, specially classic) have like their peaks at subjectivly -20db, because i dont wanna turn up the speakers just to get blown away by the next normal -3db track... (i actually just listen to them as they are then, i dont play with the volume knob while listening... i just set the max. volume )
for me its good practice to put song peaks close to 0db and often (newer) people switch this one up with "loadness war"

you also notice this on youtube alot, people wanna do a "favor" while making the volume quite or not as loud, tho you have to turn up your volume, just to get blown away by the next normal volume video again (so its not a favor, at all)

I think that music with a lot of dynamics sounds bad on a bad Hifi system. Alternatively, you play (high volume) over the capacity of the system, drive the amplifier (with too little power) into clipping for example. Distortion is not fun.
With a capable rig, it is possible to play loud without getting "sore ears".

Not to mention live music. But that is a completely different thing, a different experience. As for example she points out from 17:50 and a few minutes ahead into the video when she says: "And the power".
(she also talks about compressed recorded music)

By the way, damn what a singer he was.

 

[storing]

i never did extensive blind testing on "all the things" (because i think its flawed) but i certainly did som ... this just tells me blind testing doesnt work like you guys think/expect it to be

i still think its flawed and not nessecary with the right mindset

Blind Testing a 0.5 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

yep its a great site ...
got 10/10 with 0,5db

So when exactly is blind testing flawed and when is it not?

Let this be the new year where science prevails

 

[Frgirard]

So when exactly is blind testing flawed and when is it not?

Let this be the new year where science prevails

Unless you think of psychology as a science

For the ABX- let's name things precisely - It is neither more nor less than the narcissistic wound of the audiophile.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

So when exactly is blind testing flawed and when is it not?

Let this be the new year where science prevails

its with very subtil changes, i dont say "nothing" can be heared while A/B testing tho (i just say it can have its flaws), like i wrote before i actually did "blindtests" with the ac purifier by ifi and me and my friend could tell when it was plugged it and when exactly it was plugged in

this volume test is something different tho... and like i said i actually had to do some "training" (and i actually did it this way -> on the top of the page you can listen to the "exact" track, without guessing... and i did this multiple times, specially with "flat" and "quiter", if i wouldnt have done this i would have probably never got 10/10, thats one reason right there why i think it has its flaws
(just like with those "audiophil" changes, you have to hear them "once" so you know what to listen for....)

i just dont have the energy or time todo extensive a/b tests (and also bother a friend/familymember) all the time, for me its enough that i can tell the difference. end of story beside being pretty sure these people here would question everything about it if i tell them just the result x)

EDIT: here i did a photo of the test btw
i really wonder if i can do some training for 0,2db tho specially on my mainsetup, but the first test i did with headphones was like 0/8

 

[Frgirard]

i just dont have the energy or time todo extensive a/b tests (and also bother a friend/familymember) all the time, for me its enough that i can tell the difference. end of story beside being pretty sure these people here would question everything about it if i tell them just the result x)

For many audiophiles the forums are only a forum for eloquence, swagger and other chest bending.
"Me sir, I hear therefore I am".
Luckily, this is only a hobby and fanciful statements have no other consequences than to bring to life the humorous forums said audiophile.
Just for that, the materialist that I am thanks you

 

[DanielT]

its with very subtil changes, i dont say "nothing" can be heared while A/B testing tho (i just say it can have its flaws), like i wrote before i actually did "blindtests" with the ac purifier by ifi and me and my friend could tell when it was plugged it and when exactly it was plugged in

this volume test is something different tho... and like i said i actually had to do some "training" (and i actually did it this way -> on the top of the page you can listen to the "exact" track, without guessing... and i did this multiple times, specially with "flat" and "quiter", if i wouldnt have done this i would have probably never got 10/10, thats one reason right there why i think it has its flaws
(just like with those "audiophil" changes, you have to hear them "once" so you know what to listen for....)

i just dont have the energy or time todo extensive a/b tests (and also bother a friend/familymember) all the time, for me its enough that i can tell the difference. end of story beside being pretty sure these people here would question everything about it if i tell them just the result x)

EDIT: here i did a photo of the test btw

Hell, you fixed the test. Had my doubts. Hat off. Golden ears, congratulations to them.

Feel sorry for your wallet though!

I who do not have such ears can plug in a tube amp from time to time. Then without getting too annoyed at the sound, on the contrary, but it's probably because the tube glow coziness helps to create that feeling. I'm fooling myself, but what does it matter? It is still a subjective experience. In that case, there is nothing wrong with subjectivism. As long as you are aware of it.

Edit:
Or I like tube sound (distortion) sometimes.