Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Pdxwayne]

No

 

[sonitus mirus]

From an intellectual perspective, with regards to the direction this thread is heading, it is like arguing with a 5-year-old about the existence of Santa. Sure, the entire kindergarten class and most of first through third grade believe. In fact, more than one of the teachers even told stories about Santa, and Joey left cookies and milk out overnight and somebody definitely ate them and left a "thank you" note.

If you don't believe in Santa, you might need a house with a real chimney, and not some apartment or condo with a 5-6" sheet metal pipe.

I say Santa doesn't exist, no matter how many "nuh-uhs" are proclaimed to refute my position.

 

[billyjoebob]

Also note that 'all amps sound the same' etc. comes with a few other qualifiers, such as that the amplifiers in question do not react to the load creating a different response/frequency curve (see tube amplifiers, etc.) that the device is not driven into clipping as when they are the differences are both audible and measurable, and so forth.

I give you props for being the only person I have heard even mention the word qualifier!
All I hear is all amps sound the same period.
All DACS sound the same period.
Hence my "straw man" response!
This site has such a wealth of information, that is not reaching the masses due to this simple idea being assumed!
If hear a $10 dongle dac is as good as ANY DAC again, or any amp will work I'll loose my shit!
Yea maybe for some someone running a cell phone and sound card, but the qualifier that is not mentioned is that ain't gonna work for someone trying to fill a large room with forceful sound.
And don't get me wrong, I love my desktop system, but what works for it WONT work in my main system!
Qualifier indeed!

 

[ahofer]

All I hear is all amps sound the same period.
All DACS sound the same period.

I don’t see this at all here. The ‘qualifiers‘ show up in literally every thread on the topic.

 

[billyjoebob]

I don’t see this at all here. The ‘qualifiers‘ show up in literally every thread on the topic.

No. No they dont.

 

[ahofer]

No. No they dont.

Here are the first three from the search feature. Yup, each one has it. Have a look around, don’t just react.

Yes, Virginia, well measuring amps and dacs do all sound the same! (Feat. DMS and JDS Labs)

Hi All, I ran across the following video and thought people might find it interesting and/or amusing In it, DMS who admits an appreciation for some more 'subjective' stuff like tube amplifiers and says that he claims to be able to hear the difference between some DACs and amplifiers...

audiosciencereview.com

two different amps sound the same?

i know this has been beat to death but i just need a lil more clarification, please. if all amps working right sound the same, why are there so many different brands/types? rhetorically, i understand capitalism. and why would i pay $5000 for one if the $500 one will sound the same? i own 3...

audiosciencereview.com

Amp/Speaker Matching

I heard some say 'warm sounding speakers with warm sounding amps', others have said 'warm sounding speakers with a bright sounding amps'. Now I know the debate about how all good amps should sound the same under clipping levels but it is just not the case with more budget friendly integrated...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[billyjoebob]

Here are the first three from the search feature. Yup, each one has it. Have a look around, don’t just react.

Yes, Virginia, well measuring amps and dacs do all sound the same! (Feat. DMS and JDS Labs)

Hi All, I ran across the following video and thought people might find it interesting and/or amusing In it, DMS who admits an appreciation for some more 'subjective' stuff like tube amplifiers and says that he claims to be able to hear the difference between some DACs and amplifiers...

audiosciencereview.com

two different amps sound the same?

i know this has been beat to death but i just need a lil more clarification, please. if all amps working right sound the same, why are there so many different brands/types? rhetorically, i understand capitalism. and why would i pay $5000 for one if the $500 one will sound the same? i own 3...

audiosciencereview.com

Amp/Speaker Matching

I heard some say 'warm sounding speakers with warm sounding amps', others have said 'warm sounding speakers with a bright sounding amps'. Now I know the debate about how all good amps should sound the same under clipping levels but it is just not the case with more budget friendly integrated...

audiosciencereview.com

You are referring to 3 posts that I have not read.
Where is any qualifier in any of these 33 pages.

 

[ahofer]

You are referring to 3 posts that I have not read.

Apparently. Muted.

 

[Holmz]

Apologies but I seem to be misunderstanding you; typcial speaker measurements here do include FR/crossover frequencies i.e. individual drivers/beamwidth/impedance/impulse response/step response. So including time domain ie. what you say is needed. So we're basically saying the same thing then, i.e. such set of measurements is sufficient to distinguish different speakers, right?

I was referring to the step function, which is also captured in the impulse response... or equivalent to knowing the impulse response.


There have been a lot of posts I missed, but if we transition from speakers to say fuses or capacitors, then if the same signal is measured with the different fises and the signals are the same, then it would mean that there was no difference made.

With capacitors I would expect that the differences would show up mostly in transients *time domain” or in the impulse response.

Since we do not see any measurements for power cords, interconnects, or fuses, then my suspicion is that there are no differences to show. And that such a message would run counter to marketing claims.

 

[Firefly00]

maybe you guys need to be convinced but yea, i gave up too

Tweaks absolutely improve the sound of your system, just mostly not in a physical way. If the placebo effect makes you happier with your system, then that’s great. However, such differences do not exist in the real world, only in the mind.

Nothing wrong with that, but it’s no use pretending that it’s how reality works

Back to blind testing! If you can’t hear it in a blind test, it‘s not a difference in sound, it’s a difference in aesthetics of the equipment.

 

[Firefly00]

i dont even know what else to say its like argueing with religious people who are 100% certain god exists because some dude wrote the bible (measurements and "theory" which cant even be proofed 100% right and are certainly not the only things that matter)

So you have some evidence to back up these claims?

 

[Deleted member 23982]

And don't get me wrong, I love my desktop system, but what works for it WONT work in my main system!

exactly this i also just gave up on a "superior" desktop-pc music setup, hence the rather cheap soundcard with cheap (but for the price alright) 30€ headphones because it gets the job done (specially for youtube videos and stuff like that where audio quality doesnt matter at all....) tho its miles away from my main setup and i pretty much cant distingiush the things/differences i can hear on my main setup, maybe i would if i start hunting weak-links there too, pretty much i could but in the end not "really" worth it because of crappy/noisy pc hardware and windows and i wouldnt get it to same level as my main setup anyway
and i pretty much get it when people say "they cant hear a difference" because pretty certainly i couldnt either on your setup...

 

[Deleted member 23982]

So you have some evidence to back up these claims?

ah, good one i guess

 

[Spkrdctr]

exactly this i also just gave up on a "superior" desktop-pc music setup, hence the rather cheap soundcard with cheap (but for the price alright) 30€ headphones because it gets the job done (specially for youtube videos and stuff like that where audio quality doesnt matter at all....) tho its miles away from my main setup and i pretty much cant distingiush the things/differences i can hear on my main setup, maybe i would if i start hunting weak-links there too, pretty much i could but in the end not "really" worth it because of crappy/noisy pc hardware and windows and i wouldnt get it to same level as my main setup
and i pretty much get it when people say "they cant hear a difference" because pretty certainly i couldnt either on your setup...

I think you are trolling. Oh well.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Tweaks absolutely improve the sound of your system, just mostly not in a physical way. If the placebo effect makes you happier with your system, then that’s great. However, such differences do not exist in the real world, only in the mind.

and its not placebo, if i "downgrade" my system and just being unsatisified till i "upgrade" because i still know "how it could" sound like, even with different moods or whatever you guys think make you "percept" sound in SOO a different way...

tho i dont say mood cant change the perception, it certainly will but not in a way where you get absolutly blind to changes.... im sorry for you guys, that your mind and ears are obviously fooled massively each time and every day, i wonder how artists can sing each day the same tho .....( yea not always 100% exactly but i guess you get my point... )

 

[Deleted member 23982]

I think you are trolling. Oh well.

yes, just think that and deny and reason it with me being a lunatic

 

[Beave]

I think you are trolling. Oh well.

The best trolls are sincere and don't understand that they're trolling.

 

[Firefly00]

ah, good one i guess

Have you ever heard of Hitchen’s Razor?

“What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence”

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Have you ever heard of Hitchen’s Razor?

“What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence”

while it can be dismissed, it doesnt mean its the "true and only right" answer to it
but the religion example was a real bad one i have to say now thinking about it...

 

[rdenney]

its really sad to be honest, of course you want answer, of course its "easy" to rely on science, the human always trys to find explanations and if they cant rely on their own ears measurements is the next best thing to "see something"

At some point, I conclude that this week it was your turn to poke a stick in the anthill and laugh at the ants scurrying around.

Controlled subjective testing is precisely "rely[ing] on their own ears." Uncontrolled sighted testing is demonstrably not relying on their own ears, given that the definition of "sighted" means using the eyes.

If you are so confident, conduct the test. Unwilling to do so? Then why are you here?

Once in a while, someone rises the challenge and discovers something new.

Rick "you've been here a year. Why?" Denney