Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Miska]

I tried to package some test data as accurately as possible, unfortunately FLAC doesn't support 705.6k data, so that one is packed in WavPack instead (and still the package is rather large):

https://www.sonarnerd.net/tmp/test-tones.zip

I used these lossless compression to keep the package size reasonable.

 

[DDF]

Maybe it's a cultural/language difference, but I didn't see anyone calling you names in this thread, but I did see you attacking others based on this straw-man "ASR member" that you apparently constructed in your head.

A small number of members have self assigned themselves roles calling out unfounded posts on audibility. The vast majority of these audibility claims are made by posters with very little technical background and they probably are imagined. As a result, these members often use hair trigger and belittling rebuttals for all claims. I recall when I first joined I was being accused of being a tin foil hat audiophile for claiming I was having noise and distortion due to ground loops. I've been an EE in mixed signal processing for 30 yrs with many in a very well funded audio research lab.
This foum sometimes has an unattractive blind spot about the crappy way some members treat those they consider to be the "others"

 

[pkane]

A small number of members have self assigned themselves roles calling out unfounded posts on audibility. The vast majority of these audibility claims are made by posters with very little technical background and they probably are imagined. As a result, these members often use hair trigger and belittling rebuttals for all claims. I recall when I first joined I was being accused of being a tin foil hat audiophile for claiming I was having noise and distortion due to ground loops. I've been an EE in mixed signal processing for 30 yrs with many in a very well funded audio research lab.
This foum sometimes has an unattractive blind spot about the crappy way some members treat those they consider to be the "others"

The proper response is not to attack everyone because of the actions of a few, but this is not what had happened here.

 

[DDF]

The proper response is not to attack everyone because of the actions of a few, but this is not what had happened here.

I agree with your point that lashing out back is never the best response but when "everyone" is overwhelmingly supporting the "few" either through commission or omission, what do you think he'll perceive? This is the blind spot I'm talking about.
I agree evidence would close the discussion. But you're not listening to him (furthering the perception). I worked at Nortel, similar to Jussi working at Nokia, and we are bound by non disclosure agreements to not publicly publish such research. There is a stack of double blind derived statistically validated audibility data that I can't share either, for example (though not related to his claim).

 

[dc655321]

I worked at Nortel, similar to Jussi working at Nokia, and we are bound by non disclosure agreements to not publicly publish such research.

Are you perhaps making assumptions about the rationale for non-disclosure in Miska’s case? I don’t see this has anything to do with NDAs.

 

[pkane]

I agree with your point that lashing out back is never the best response but when "everyone" is overwhelmingly supporting the "few" either through commission or omission, what do you think he'll perceive? This is the blind spot I'm talking about.
I agree evidence would close the discussion. But you're not listening to him (furthering the perception). I worked at Nortel, similar to Jussi working at Nokia, and we are bound by non disclosure agreements to not publicly publish such research. There is a stack of double blind derived statistically validated audibility data that I can't share either, for example (though not related to his claim).

I’ve just asked for a description of the test, I didn’t attack Jussi nor did I accuse him of anything. Yet I was accused of having preconceived notions, being an enemy and assuming the worst about him. Sorry, but that’s not a way to communicate with others.

 

[Miska]

I’ve just asked for a description of the test

And I said that I'm not going to provide more information than I already have. And you can consider it another story on internet as you wish, ignore it or what ever.

I was asked what I think is audible. And I responded to that. It is based on my experience/knowledge. There is not going to be any kind of core-dump of my brain contents here (or private/trade/confidential information).

 

[sonitus mirus]

And I said that I'm not going to provide more information than I already have. And you can consider it another story on internet as you wish, ignore it or what ever.

I was asked what I think is audible. And I responded to that. It is based on my experience/knowledge. There is not going to be any kind of core-dump of my brain contents here (or private/trade/confidential information).

Although intriguing as it may be, by your choice, this will remain just another story on the internet to me. It is interesting, and perhaps someone else will find the necessary time and resources to investigate and provide a more revealing explanation for what has been observed. I am not intentionally attacking you or your processes, I am simply taking in the data from an objective perspective.

Thanks for your contributions and please continue to provide any additional data that you feel is acceptable. It is genuinely appreciated.

 

[DDF]

I’ve just asked for a description of the test, I didn’t attack Jussi nor did I accuse him of anything. Yet I was accused of having preconceived notions, being an enemy and assuming the worst about him. Sorry, but that’s not a way to communicate with others.

Quoting from your previous post "It's just another story on the internet." He referred that back to you twice. And he did explain he can't share the info. Anyway, there's nothing more I can add that's constructive, life is short!

 

[pkane]

And I said that I'm not going to provide more information than I already have. And you can consider it another story on internet as you wish, ignore it or what ever.

I was asked what I think is audible. And I responded to that. It is based on my experience/knowledge. There is not going to be any kind of core-dump of my brain contents here (or private/trade/confidential information).

Yes, I got that. No sharing of information with the enemy, no matter what.

 

[pkane]

Quoting from your previous post "It's just another story on the internet." He referred that back to you twice. And he did explain he can't share the info. Anyway, there's nothing more I can add that's constructive, life is short!

Yes, and I was done asking Miska for more information before you jumped in to the conversation, once I realized he was not going to reveal any, even if he's captured and tortured by the enemy (i.e., ASR members asking him for details -- the form of torture banned by the UN for being more inhumane than even waterboarding).

 

[ClicketEKlack]

Has there ever been a proposal on the forum to sponsor a large-scale (post-COVID of course) double-blind listening test? It seems like there’s an awful lot of gauntlets being flung re: unsighted tests without any actually being performed in controlled settings. If we all chipped in some money and people brought their high-measuring gear and the expensive high-end gear, we might actually be able to point to something concrete and put the debate to rest. We also might learn whether or not the measurements being used are indeed the be-all-end-all. They have a TV shootout every year sponsored by Value Electronics. Why not have an ASR battle royale? I would love to see how a D90SE fares against a Holo May or M-Scaled DAVE.

 

[BoredErica]

It won't do anything. Previous blind tests didn't count in their eyes, and future ones won't either. They have a belief that's like politics or religion. And many people already straight up said they don't believe in blind tests.

What's annoying is when people join ASR already with a firm belief that ASR is full of BS to argue with people. Not to debate, but to argue. Stuff like 'people on ASR need to get their ears checked' etc etc.

There are of course people who are more open to being convinced but it's discouraging when people who already made up their minds pretend to being open to being convinced.

The debate will never end so long as audio reproduction is a thing and human beings are still the emotional, irrational beings we all are.

 

[Miska]

Yes, I got that. No sharing of information with the enemy, no matter what.

Paul, I never considered you as enemy. But when you start putting me in same message as snake oil and such it is getting close. When I say I'm not going to go into more details about something, starting to accuse me is not going to help.

As you may know, I do insane amounts of analysis, testing and measurements under various conditions. I sometimes share some of my own data. But I have to say that I don't have much motivation doing so, given the nice positive responses I always get.

 

[Miska]

I would love to see how a D90SE fares against a Holo May or M-Scaled DAVE.

I wish I had money for Holo May. But I keep enjoying my Holo Cyan DSD, Spring 1, Spring 2 and Spring 3. And T+A DAC8 DSD and HA 200. And Denafrips Ares II. And the two RME ADI-2 Pro's. And Merging Hapi. And TEAC NT-503. And Playback Designs Merlot. And the EVGA NU-Audio card. And iFi iDAC200 and iDSD Micro BL. And even the old Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC (first one with DSD over USB). And many many others. While D90SE stays in the box for time being, like Chord Mojo too. But SMSL M500 mkII is in the office rack now too (together with M400).

 

[ahofer]

Has there ever been a proposal on the forum to sponsor a large-scale (post-COVID of course) double-blind listening test? It seems like there’s an awful lot of gauntlets being flung re: unsighted tests without any actually being performed in controlled settings. If we all chipped in some money and people brought their high-measuring gear and the expensive high-end gear, we might actually be able to point to something concrete and put the debate to rest. We also might learn whether or not the measurements being used are indeed the be-all-end-all. They have a TV shootout every year sponsored by Value Electronics. Why not have an ASR battle royale? I would love to see how a D90SE fares against a Holo May or M-Scaled DAVE.

I offered a prize. ASR people were worried somebody would find a corner case. Over on Audiogon, they censored all my posts referring to it. David Richard Clark offered a prize for years. Few Many took the challenge and nobody won, but it is received wisdom among the Fremers of the world that he was dishonest about it.

Whatever it is, it’s a heck of a drug.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Has there ever been a proposal on the forum to sponsor a large-scale (post-COVID of course) double-blind listening test? It seems like there’s an awful lot of gauntlets being flung re: unsighted tests without any actually being performed in controlled settings. If we all chipped in some money and people brought their high-measuring gear and the expensive high-end gear, we might actually be able to point to something concrete and put the debate to rest. We also might learn whether or not the measurements being used are indeed the be-all-end-all. They have a TV shootout every year sponsored by Value Electronics. Why not have an ASR battle royale? I would love to see how a D90SE fares against a Holo May or M-Scaled DAVE.

There has been a fair number done. I've linked to a few in this thread. There's lots of evidence to show that audiophiles can't do the magic they claim to be able to do, and really nothing to show that they can.

 

[pkane]

Paul, I never considered you as enemy. But when you start putting me in same message as snake oil and such it is getting close. When I say I'm not going to go into more details about something, starting to accuse me is not going to help.

As you may know, I do insane amounts of analysis, testing and measurements under various conditions. I sometimes share some of my own data. But I have to say that I don't have much motivation doing so, given the nice positive responses I always get.

Jussi, I understand and will not ask again.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I offered a prize. ASR people were worried somebody would find a corner case. Over on Audiogon, they censored all my posts referring to it. David Clark offered a prize for years. Few took the challenge and nobody won, but it is received wisdom among the Fremers of the world that he was dishonest about it.

Whatever it is, it’s a heck of a drug.

It is Richard Clark. I thought over time Richard Clark had nearly 2000 people try it. Or maybe it was 200. It was more than a handful.

He required 12 correct responses out of 12 and a 2nd session of 12 correct out of 12 to win $10,000. I don't believe anyone ever managed even one session of 12 correct out of those who tried.

Fremer over headphones at an audio show once managed 5 of 5, and I don't recall if that was something Clark was involved with. They didn't shower him with praise for having golden ears, but said if he'd do that again it would be statistically significant. He of course took umbrage, didn't do it a 2nd time and said it was always like that. That such people keep moving the goalposts.

 

[rdenney]

I'm not AES member. And I don't see a reason why I would bother with that?

Because your unwillingness to subject your experimental method to scrutiny undermines your credibility. If ASR is too undisciplined or lacks the credentials to judge your work, I thought maybe you would consider something more formal.

Rick “betting AES membership is not required for publication in their journal, but also not a member” Denney