Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Romario]

If speakers in general were moving toward a consensus or were getting better than ever it might make sense to end up with almost all good reviews. Instead I think we see a proliferation of whatever might be of interest and a loss of reference regarding what a good speaker does.

I understand all kinds of speakers can have their charms with some kinds of music or some kinds of circumstances. Even that subjective descriptions from a just listen and see what you think approach can give one an idea how something sounds if it departs from neutrality enough. Certainly people are free to enjoy music and the gear any way that suits them.

This made me think. It's like a beauty contest. A study showed that the average face of a man is attractive. The more it deviates from average the less beautiful it is. But some characteristics in humans (or sound) appeal more to us. So, in case of sound there's that one perfect sound and we're settling what can be obtained and be happy with that (or not). Just like in life.

( it's just a brain fart filosophy, don't put any emphasis on right or wrong)

 

[Oldhifi]

Please rather use English on this forum.

I understand that you found your DAC200 to sound "much better", but without proper controlled listening, I'm afraid that this feedback would be pretty much worthless around here.

Otherwise, welcome !

Sorry I wrote in English, but Google translated it.
Yes, I think that , First : the subjective listening experience is major than measurements. Second: the results of my listening were same in any time and in any circumstances. Which is the controlled listening? Double blind X ?
I believe in long term listening test.
I know on this forum the people don't believe such as different sounds of cables.
I think that the best device is the ears of my own.

Regards,
Tamás

 

[BDWoody]

Welcome!

There is a constant conflict between audiophiles and technocrats.

Yes, and it would be great if more audiophiles would learn a little more of the technical stuff. It would lead to much less wasted effort on things like swapping capacitors, and more on basic controls during listening comparisons.

I have an Atoll DAC 200 (not Signature) and also had SMSL SU-1 and Topping D10. Both are much better in size than the Atoll, but the sound quality of the Atoll is much, much better. By the way, I changed the coupling capacitors to the right.

I'm guessing this was just a casual comparison, not a properly controlled listening test with sight and level controls.

 

[Oldhifi]

Sorry, I am not a technical man, only a simple traumatologist. But I understand a little the thechnical things and the high fidelity is my hobby over 40 years. I made simple amplifier, loudspeaker, changed crossovers ( with different capacitors ) and I have two good ears

 

[VintageFlanker]

I know on this forum the people don't believe such as different sounds of cables

Which is just common sense, so : yes, sure.

 

[Oldhifi]

Which is just common sense, so : yes, sure.

The "holy" SINAD or anything else...
I attached an article from sound quality of amplifiers. A detail from page 31.
"There has been a failure in the attempt to use specifications to characterize the
subtleties of sonic performance. Amplifiers with similar measurements are not
equal, and products with higher power, wider bandwidth, and lower distortion do
not necessarily sound better. For a long time there has been faith in the technical
community that eventually some objective analysis would reconcile critical
listeners subjective experience with laboratory measurement."

 

[Oldhifi]

There is no correlation between measurements and sound quality in many cases.

Which is just common sense, so : yes, sure.

 

[Lupin]

There is no correlation between measurements and sound quality in many cases.

Last time i checked we are still on planet earth...
So sound is nothing more than an electric signal, electric signals can be measured.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that in IT it's accepted that data is an electric signal that can be measured, with video it is accepted that video signals are electric signals that can be measured. Yet with audio the signal is suddenly something "magical" that supposedly only can be fully heard/experienced with super expensive audiophile gear and is impossible to measure....

 

[Oldhifi]

Last time i checked we are still on planet earth...
So sound is nothing more than an electric signal, electric signals can be measured.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that in IT it's accepted that data is an electric signal that can be measured, with video it is accepted that video signals are electric signals that can be measured. Yet with audio the signal is suddenly something "magical" that supposedly only can be fully heard/experienced with super expensive audiophile gear and is impossible to measure....

Please read the article...
Otherwise, the electric signal is not "absolute" electric signal, the electric power is a modulated energy, I think so.

 

[Oldhifi]

Last time i checked we are still on planet earth...
So sound is nothing more than an electric signal, electric signals can be measured.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that in IT it's accepted that data is an electric signal that can be measured, with video it is accepted that video signals are electric signals that can be measured. Yet with audio the signal is suddenly something "magical" that supposedly only can be fully heard/experienced with super expensive audiophile gear and is impossible to measure....

One moment, please...

In this test they have measured the RCA cables . Please read at least the 2., 3., 4. and 24. points.

 

[VintageFlanker]

The "holy" SINAD or anything else...
I attached an article from sound quality of amplifiers. A detail from page 31.
"There has been a failure in the attempt to use specifications to characterize the
subtleties of sonic performance. Amplifiers with similar measurements are not
equal, and products with higher power, wider bandwidth, and lower distortion do
not necessarily sound better. For a long time there has been faith in the technical
community that eventually some objective analysis would reconcile critical
listeners subjective experience with laboratory measurement."

OK. How exactly is that related to "the sound of cables" you were mentioning ?

Edit: If the "proof" you have is from Alpha Audio, I'm afraid that you won't convince anyone. Their "objective" work has been debunked over and over here.

 

[Oldhifi]

OK. How exactly is that related to "the sound of cables" you were mentioning ?

Edit: If the "proof" you have is from Alpha Audio, I'm afraid that you won't convince anyone. Their "objective" work has been debunked over and over here.

Right. The results of their measurements is different on the different cables. The cables sound different. The ASR says the cables sound same. I think that, the electric power as a modulated energy runs through cable which functions as a filter. Structures of cables are different so the sound will be different. But the first article wich I attached is more interesting.
Sorry, if my English is not perfect.

 

[BDWoody]

Right. The results of their measurements is different on the different cables.

I moved some recent posts to this thread, where this has been and will be discussed. Alpha doesn't have a very good track record when it comes to promoting silliness.

The cables sound different.

Uh huh.

The ASR says the cables sound same.

Not exactly, but competent cables properly chosen will not alter the signal to an audible degree.

I think that, the electric power as a modulated energy runs through cable which functions as a filter. Structures of cables are different so the sound will be different.

What level of understanding do you have about electricity or basic circuits?

Sorry, if my English is not perfect.

Please don't worry about that.

 

[SIY]

and I have two good ears

And a human brain. Therein the need for ears-only controls.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Right. The results of their measurements is different on the different cables. The cables sound different. The ASR says the cables sound same. I think that, the electric power as a modulated energy runs through cable which functions as a filter. Structures of cables are different so the sound will be different. But the first article wich I attached is more interesting.
Sorry, if my English is not perfect.

Please take this crap somewhere else. We've been over stuff like this time and time and time again. It is BS. Mhz measurements, they sound different (always uncontrolled listening nothing rigorous) etc etc blah, blah, blah. Wake up and get a clue. If you can't get a clue, buy a clue. Go take some courses. Just don't spew this garbage reasoning and information all over the place.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Alpha doesn't have a very good track record when it comes to promoting silliness.

Have to disagree with one point in your post. Alpha audio has an excellent track record of promoting silliness. It is all they do and they promote silliness very well.

 

[SIY]

The "holy" SINAD or anything else...
I attached an article from sound quality of amplifiers. A detail from page 31.
"There has been a failure in the attempt to use specifications to characterize the
subtleties of sonic performance. Amplifiers with similar measurements are not
equal, and products with higher power, wider bandwidth, and lower distortion do
not necessarily sound better. For a long time there has been faith in the technical
community that eventually some objective analysis would reconcile critical
listeners subjective experience with laboratory measurement."

The Cheever thesis has been waved around for decades. It is spectacularly awful. He was either fortunate or unfortunate that I wasn't on his committee. Had I been, perhaps earlier on he could have been directed into doing proper experiments. Which of course would have forced him to abandon his quasi-religious nonsense and do useful work.

If you want to wave around more infamous pseudoscience, go read Oohashi and Kunchur, then be prepared to be mocked mercilessly.

 

[Blockader]

Sorry, I am not a technical man, only a simple traumatologist. But I understand a little the thechnical things and the high fidelity is my hobby over 40 years. I made simple amplifier, loudspeaker, changed crossovers ( with different capacitors ) and I have two good ears

We hear the same differences you do whether it’s between dacs, amps, cables, or even ethernet cables. However, we remain skeptical about these differences because without basic controls like volume matching or blind testing, it’s impossible to be 100% certain whether what we hear is a genuine distinction or simply the result of placebo or confirmation bias.

Secondly, just because there is a measurable difference between two components doesn’t necessarily mean they will sound different. Our ears are not perfectly precise audio analyzers. In fact, they’re quite limited in detecting certain types of distortion. This is because human hearing evolved for survival, not for analytical precision. Focusing only to the loud sound while ignoring the quieter sounds that are following it was more beneficial for survival.

 

[Smaestro]

Sorry, I am not a technical man, only a simple traumatologist. But I understand a little the thechnical things and the high fidelity is my hobby over 40 years. I made simple amplifier, loudspeaker, changed crossovers ( with different capacitors ) and I have two good ears

As a traumatologist you are probably an intelligent person, and aware of the many ways that the brain can trick itself.

There's this big one:

And a list of biases that cloud your judgement. Relevant in the picture below:

• Belief Bias and Confirmation Bias (Trusting Alpha Audio because it aligns with what you already think)
• Blind Spot bias (you ignore ASR, because you think ASR members don't understand or don't want to understand what you're saying)
• Availability Heuristic (trusting the sources you know, while not reading published research by AES).

It is impossible to ignore these effects just by wishing them away. Knowing about these effects does not make you immune to them.

 

[Mart68]

The Cheever thesis has been waved around for decades. It is spectacularly awful. He was either fortunate or unfortunate that I wasn't on his committee. Had I been, perhaps earlier on he could have been directed into doing proper experiments. Which of course would have forced him to abandon his quasi-religious nonsense and do useful work.

If you want to wave around more infamous pseudoscience, go read Oohashi and Kunchur, then be prepared to be mocked mercilessly.

His opening statement is untrue, so hardly seems worth looking at the rest of it.

''There exists general agreement that the commonly accepted test and measurement protocols for audio frequency power amplifiers fail to correlate with the subjectively accessed devices sound quality.''