Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[sigbergaudio]

Interesting. I’ve heard some imperfectly measuring loudspeakers sound a bit more real to me in some aspects with some content.

We have quite a bit of data as to overall preferences in loudspeaker design over a range of different music.

It would’ve been neat to have plenty of good data where loudspeakers were rated in terms of realism (even more cool if somebody had managed to produce real versus live comparisons that weren’t problematic).

At the end of the day, the purpose of speakers is to be listened to by human beings. So a perfectly objective evaluation of the performance is practically impossible.

Each human being puts different weight on different qualities, has different ideas about which imperfections they will accept, etc. Most people also have a preference with regards to genre(s), despite claiming "I listen to everything". This too affects which qualities are more important, and less important.

That being said, we see a general consensus on many things. We also have some data on what measurements indicate a good speaker. At the same time, a number of the speakers that measure the best (and as such are presented as the best on this forum) does not necessarily evoke that "this sounds real" and "this feels right" experience. At least not to me.

Not a perfect world, and no access to perfect data. So we are not in a position to make a perfectly objective, perfectly logical choice. But that's not what we humans do anyway. And still, a lot of great speakers out there, which is good.

 

[MattHooper]

Each human being puts different weight on different qualities, has different ideas about which imperfections they will accept, etc.

Yup. That even goes for people striving for neutrality. There are still differences and trade-offs often being made depending on someone’s taste and goals.

At the same time, a number of the speakers that measure the best (and as such are presented as the best on this forum) does not necessarily evoke that "this sounds real" and "this feels right" experience. At least not to me.

My experience as well. Overall, in terms of speakers I’d own I prefer something trending towards neutrality - if something sounds too imbalanced I’ll notice it and get turned off. But various flavourings have been very compelling.

I mentioned here my experience of being drawn into a room at an audio show by a particular life like sound that turned out to be produced by Zu loudspeakers

Also, when I was doing a mega search for a new pair of loudspeakers a few years ago, which included some well-known “ properly measuring loudspeakers,” it was actually some less than perfect measuring speakers that grab me with a type of life-like sound.
And some of it had to do with the very particular things I’m looking for, versus maybe somebody else who would’ve concentrated more on the deficiencies of the speaker.

 

[Purité Audio]

Zu wasn’t ‘too imbalanced’ if they aren’t what on earth is?
Perhaps the worst loudspeaker I have ever heard.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

Zu wasn’t ‘too imbalanced’ if they aren’t what on earth is?

“Longer listening with more tracks may have cued me more in to the frequency response errors, and so I may have in the end said "not for me"

I only heard a couple of tracks or so. I highly doubt I personally would want to live with Zu loudspeakers, especially given what I know of their frequency response. But as I point out, I could understand their appeal for other people.

Perhaps the worst loudspeaker I have ever heard.
Keith

Cool. Different people want different things out of their loudspeakers.

 

[Purité Audio]

But most want at least some semblance to the record being played.
Keith

 

[goat76]

Zu wasn’t ‘too imbalanced’ if they aren’t what on earth is?
Perhaps the worst loudspeaker I have ever heard.
Keith

Maybe they had many obvious faults, but it is also possible they didn't have enough distortion in the midrange for your taste.

 

[MattHooper]

But most want at least some semblance to the record being played.
Keith

And some people are mostly looking for a speaker that provides them with a compelling experience when listening to their favourite music:

Quebec audiophile shows off his new Hi-Fi system, very expensive set up

For all we know he assembled this system for the sole purpose of increasing engagement on his YouTube channel Ding ding ding! More bling = more viewers.

www.audiosciencereview.com

And they can still hear plenty of nuances in the recordings.

To each his own, right?

 

[Purité Audio]

I find nothing compelling about heroically poor design .
Keith

 

[Blumlein 88]

Zu can be compelling. I'd be compelled to go somewhere else and listen to almost any other speaker or headphones. People who tolerate Zu sound should definitely take the diy route. You are very likely to make something better.

 

[IngMishael]

I went into Zu audio demos expecting a revelatory experience only to be disappointed by this supposed top of the line stuff...

They sounded so wrong. I get subjective preference but nah I still can't get behind some stuff. I could hear break up related things when playing dynamic tracks that demand a lot of driver excursion. there was this unmistakable honk resonance that was so glaring I was wondering how one doesn't hear that!

 

[MattHooper]

Zu can be compelling. I'd be compelled to go somewhere else and listen to almost any other speaker or headphones.

LOL. I can’t argue with that.

People who tolerate Zu sound should definitely take the diy route. You are very likely to make something better.

I certainly get your point. Though in reality, of course most people aren’t interested in DIY.
There are loud speakers that are designed to be characterless, neutral transducers, where some speaker designers take the approach of designing a speaker with certain sonic characteristics in mind. There’s an audience for both it seems. I’ve had it suggested before, for certain other loudspeakers that I have liked “ that just uses X and Y drivers in a box, why not just make them yourself cheaper?” I don’t because I’m not interested and it would be a huge hassle.
Instead, I preferred to let speaker designers do all the work, and come up with designs that I get to pick and choose whichever suits my fancy. Some speaker designers seem to be searching for a type of sound reproduction that has certain characteristics, and when those match the type of characteristics I care about, it makes for some happy listening.

I highly doubt I would ever choose Zu speakers though. I heard a couple tracks that played to their “strengths” and I presume longer exposure would be less engaging.

But boy or boy, Zu sure has some fans who seem absolutely thrilled with their music through those speakers. I don’t begrudged Zu serving a niche at all in that respect.

 

[sigbergaudio]

At a recent hifi show here in Norway, a few of the setups sounded positively horrible. Like, I wonder if all the drivers are connected type horrible. And everyone in my "group" agreed.

After the show I could read people on forums who had been at the show praise those same setups.

I have no idea how people have so different experiences of speakers, but it's very interesting.

 

[solderdude]

Might be a matter of people's 'references' or just trying to come across as 'knowledgeable' while having little real experience(s) ?

A long time ago I brought some decent speakers along to someone that had horrible sounding 'bose derivative' speakers.
I installed them and it sounded decent, at least a lot better than what was there.
Owner did not like the sound at all and preferred his own speakers.

 

[Blumlein 88]

At a recent hifi show here in Norway, a few of the setups sounded positively horrible. Like, I wonder if all the drivers are connected type horrible. And everyone in my "group" agreed.

After the show I could read people on forums who had been at the show praise those same setups.

I have no idea how people have so different experiences of speakers, but it's very interesting.

That kind of experience and Zu fan boys really gives one confidence in sighted subjective reviewers does it not?

 

[kimmosto]

We also have some data on what measurements indicate a good speaker. At the same time, a number of the speakers that measure the best (and as such are presented as the best on this forum) does not necessarily evoke that "this sounds real" and "this feels right" experience. At least not to me.

Excellent full range timing, low short term and long term compression and clarity i.e. combination of good room acoustics, magnitude of directivity compatible with the room, low non-linear distortion and low diffraction seem to be key features. Good Directivity Response / CTA-2034 (with correct interpretation) is kinda basic feature and easy to achieve, but it's far from adequate for really good performance. One of the best examples is 8260A having excellent frequency response features. Lame, weak, artificial and thin sound with scattered soundstage. Almost the worst timing ever. I can say this only because it's (fortunately) discontinued model.

 

[Axo1989]

Didn't they have to buy the products themselves because most manufacturers wouldn't submit any for review?

Not daft, these manufacturers.

That's largely how ASR works. A few manufacturers of suitable goods provide them free and use it as a testing service and promotional channel. The remainder are purchased by members and sent in for testing. It's sustainable as a business model because work is voluntary, costs are low and donations come in from members, who perceive benefits.

 

[Mart68]

That's largely how ASR works. A few manufacturers of suitable goods provide them free and use it as a testing service and promotional channel. The remainder are purchased by members and sent in for testing. It's sustainable as a business model because work is voluntary, costs are low and donations come in from members, who perceive benefits.

Only the manufacturers who are confident in their products though, which says a lot.

I like that there's no advertising here and appreciate the high ground that guarantees, but I sometimes wonder if the funds it would provide could upscale the operation and get a lot more done.

Amir's only doing it as a hobby and so that's another limit to how much gets tested. With serious funds to spend, the site could buy any product for test and pay people to do it full time. That would really shake the industry up.

But appreciate it's a tightrope to walk between income and impartiality.

 

[Purité Audio]

The fact that some manufacturers don’t send their products already speaks volumes.
The US distributor of a well known U.K. loudspeaker stated categorically that he would never send a speaker either here or to Erin, that tells me everything I need to know about those products.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

The fact that some manufacturers don’t send their products already speaks volumes.
The US distributor of a well known U.K. loudspeaker stated categorically that he would never send a speaker either here or to Erin, that tells me everything I need to know about those products.
Keith

Interesting that Stereophile and HFR do get poorly measuring product sent for review and test. Presumably because they offer a positive subjective review alongside, which is all most punters will look at.

Maybe there's a way of gaming that system? Not sure what though.

 

[Purité Audio]

There is the subjective part which is always good no matter how dire the equipment and then JA’s measurements ( which hardly anyone understands) and finally at best an extremely mild questioning of the subjective reviewers findings.

Keith