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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?
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MattHooper
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I have found a nice warm foot bath can sometimes be pretty relaxing.
Just don’t try to describe the experience in words, and you’ll be OK around here. ;-)
What good is language anyway?
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Couple shots of bourbon does it for me.
I have found a nice warm foot bath can sometimes be pretty relaxing.
Until the doorbell rings!
Rob
Very little is needed. Audio is a solved technology.
The numbers will tell most all.
Your always happy to try and defend nearly any BS subjective crap that comes up.
Don't you ever tire of riding that fence?
I'd think by now it would wear sores in your crack.
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This site values constructive dialogue .
Some established and valued members are engaged in repetitive discussions on this and other threads that has become something far less than that. To the point it has become something of an embarrassment at times.
Which is to say , cease or be desisted.
Mmmmmkayyyy
Some established and valued members are engaged in repetitive discussions on this and other threads that has become something far less than that. To the point it has become something of an embarrassment at times.
Which is to say , cease or be desisted.
Mmmmmkayyyy
dshreter
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This might be known to some, but there seems to be confusion about what a Spinorama is and isn't. It's a standard of measurement, not a specific measurement technique. So the Klippel NFS is one way, and what Amir uses, but it is not the only way.
I'd argue that if a speaker is being designed without the principles associated with Spinorama, then it would be impossible to optimize the design and achieve state of the art performance.
There's a tendency to associate Spinorama with the Dr. Toole school of loudspeaker design, but they are not intrinsically the same. A Spinorama can describe the frequency response and radiation pattern for speakers of widely varying presentations.
shop.cta.tech
I'd argue that if a speaker is being designed without the principles associated with Spinorama, then it would be impossible to optimize the design and achieve state of the art performance.
There's a tendency to associate Spinorama with the Dr. Toole school of loudspeaker design, but they are not intrinsically the same. A Spinorama can describe the frequency response and radiation pattern for speakers of widely varying presentations.
Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers (ANSI/CTA-2034-A R-2020)
This Standard describes how to determine the frequency response, directivity and maximum output capability of a residential loudspeaker.
shop.cta.tech
Maybe I've missed something here but wasn't "Spinorama" the name used for the carousel that Harman used
to rotate different speakers in their listening tests?
I could very likely be suffering a senior moment here?
Ken1951
Addicted to Fun and Learning
As the numbers, to have meaning, need to be interpreted in language, the whole dichotomy is stoopid.
Even Stereophile does not just throw its graphs up with no explanation.
When I look at a Klippel graph I don't convert it to 0s and 1s in my head.
Nope, you aren't.Maybe I've missed something here but wasn't "Spinorama" the name used for the carousel that Harman used
to rotate different speakers in their listening tests?
I could very likely be suffering a senior moment here?
I guess what he means by 'Spinorama' is the fact that the Klippel samples around the speaker's 3D sound field?
And the output can be graphed in terms of Harman/Toole loudspeaker performance parameters...and Harman used a 'Spinorama' to perform loudspeaker preference analysis, which ultimately led to defining those parameters?
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Sure, I did say "very little" needs to be said, and it does depend on your level of understanding what the numbers mean.
The main difference being is that here Amir may take up a whole web page with measurement and graphs, then write only a paragraph or three
on his subjective findings. But to be honest this site does aim for the more advanced audiophile with Amir also offering tutorials on reading and understanding the measurement results.
Something quite different than you'll find at the subjective houses.
MattHooper
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Exactly, I agree with what Krabapple mentions here, and have pointed this out many times before.
There are countless different designs of loudspeakers that produce a wide variety of measured differences and sonic characteristics. It takes a significant amount of technical knowledge and/or experience to understand how to precisely correlate the numbers or graphs to knowing exactly how a speaker will sound.
Most audiophiles don’t have that knowledge, just like most consumers don’t know all the ins and outs of the products they buy and so they seek experts to translate the relevance of data into comprehensible language.
And as I’ve said, this tends to lead to a type of dilemma, in terms of the expert’s interface
with the audio consumer;
The very type of people drawn to measurements and graphs and objective data, tend to be the type of people least interested in or proficient at translating that data into subjective language.
After all, they can just look at the chart and get what they need. Why bother with a subjective language? If they were attracted to that, they wouldn’t have been attracted to developing expertise with the measurements.
You see versions of this on this forum all the time, the sneering dismissal of the worth of putting sound into words or subjective description. So, while you are certainly likely to get more accurate information about audio gear here in a certain sense, in another you are much less likely to have people who are willing or interested in translating the data into “ what it sounds like” as a subjective experience.
this is why I, and some portion of other audiophiles, even while very much appreciating the value of measurements and graphs, can still get value from people who are good at subjective language, good at describing experiences, “ what it sounds like.”
Some people just really don’t care about that kind of thing. But many of us do.
So I look to this place for the expertise some people have in understanding and conveying the objective properties of audio gear.
But I’m not going to always get very good (and sometimes not even accurate) descriptions of the Sonic consequences and terms of “ what it sounds like.”
And so I also picked my way through the subjective reviewers, who can be better putting sound into words, and yes that too will be missing some information or sometimes gets some things wrong. But it’s still part of providing an overall richer picture and engagement with this hobby (for some of us).
Personally, I give a heck of a lot of respect all the time to the approach many use on ASR to understand or evaluate audio gear (which I agree with). This forum was somewhat set up in a reactionary way against the subjective audio press and long time high end audio trends in subjectivity. “ enough with the poetry and woo bullshit that’s been leading audiophiles astray for so long, time to introduce some engineering and scientific rigour to evaluating audio gear.”
Which is of course fine, but it does tend to make for a fairly reactionary and inhospitable
attitude towards putting things in the type of subjective language that can also communicate effectively to plenty of those audiophiles. String more than a couple of subjective words together and the eye rolling and dismissal of the worth of subjective language comes on pretty fast here.
And woe to anyone who actually might praise a subjective review at all, as that is greeted as “ support for the enemy and all things anti-science/engineering.”
It’s when I personally feel this is taken too far, that I tend to push back.
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dshreter
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It is a senior moment! Spinorama is a nick name for the graphs produced when measuring a speaker according to the standard I linked.Maybe I've missed something here but wasn't "Spinorama" the name used for the carousel that Harman used
to rotate different speakers in their listening tests?
I could very likely be suffering a senior moment here?
Help for spinorama website
www.spinorama.org
Well blow me down, I sit corrected.It is a senior moment! Spinorama is a nick name for the graphs produced when measuring a speaker according to the standard I linked.
Help for spinorama website
MAB
Major Contributor
It's OK.
This seemed to start with a bad faith question that tried to make a point about companies that use Spinorama vs. those who don't. The real question is "how many companies make good speakers without mics or measurements?"
Regarding Spins... There are threads here on how to do a SPIN on a Lazy Susan and a 30 dollar microphone.
Of course, the person who asked the question refuses to use a microphone.
MattHooper
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Why exactly is it “ bad faith” to point to the fact very few loudspeakers have spin data, or ask which companies are supplying such data?
Why isn’t this a reasonable question to bring up if somebody is interested in a wide variety of speakers that may not include having spin data?
Viewpoints or approaches you may not share do not just amount to “ bad faith.”
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