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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

@MattHooper. I have a thought and resulting question for you. You seem like a person that knows what they like when they experience it as you stated a couple of comments ago. In my experience I have had customers like you that are detail oriented and seeking something special. I found that they are best suited to getting my time and resources to see and experience speakers in the store but I also recognize that selling them is not a matter of price and warranty and other perks but it is finding that niche they seek and they can find that anywhere in their travels. So I never pushed with these kind of customers because they where more educated in audio gear and could determine what is this and that by their own ears and interpretation of the sound they seek. I usually encouraged them to bring demo music or use mine and to spend time in the sound rooms by themselves and get the full experience that is available. What is your experience at the retail level and how are you received in the stores?
 
@MattHooper. I have a thought and resulting question for you. You seem like a person that knows what they like when they experience it as you stated a couple of comments ago. In my experience I have had customers like you that are detail oriented and seeking something special. I found that they are best suited to getting my time and resources to see and experience speakers in the store but I also recognize that selling them is not a matter of price and warranty and other perks but it is finding that niche they seek and they can find that anywhere in their travels. So I never pushed with these kind of customers because they where more educated in audio gear and could determine what is this and that by their own ears and interpretation of the sound they seek. I usually encouraged them to bring demo music or use mine and to spend time in the sound rooms by themselves and get the full experience that is available. What is your experience at the retail level and how are you received in the stores?

Ha… am I reading between the lines the customers like me are difficult? :D

As for reception, the type of salesman who just want a very easy and fast sale - quickly sell the customer on something - there could be some friction there. But I found that most retailers geared to audiophiles recognized that we are a quirky and often picky lot, and so are ready to accommodate that.

The best dealers for me were the ones who recognized I didn’t need any sales pitches, I knew what I was doing and what I’m looking for, and they could just sit in front of the system, let me operate things myself and just leave me be until I’m finished. And so long as the situation permitted it, I would often spend hours listening. (but always sensitive to the fact I’m dealing with somebody running a business and if there is another customer to deal with, I wasn’t going to suck up all the time of the dealer).

Often enough, I would have narrowed my speaker choice down to a couple of lab speakers and would go back-and-forth between two dealers deciding which to buy.

Since some dealers have been very accommodating to me, they have become my go to, and so I’ve taken my business to them over the years. And if I purchase this loudspeaker from one of them, I also try to take my business to the other as well if I need any peripherals.

I guess what I’m saying is that I know that I’m a picky bugger, and can take up some time auditioning gear, but I’m very sensitive that these people are trying to make a living and I don’t ever want to be wasting anybody’s time.

So I never misrepresent myself pretending that I’m interested in buying a certain loudspeaker just because I want to sit and listen to it. I’m going to take up that time it’s going to be because I’m ready to buy the speaker if I like it. On the other hand, a proprietor may allow me to listen to gear I could never afford, and I make sure he understands “ I’m not looking to buy this, but if you are fine, playing the system for me I’m up for listening.”

I know that some audio salesman don’t want to play systems for people who are not going to buy that system. They would be viewed as tire kickers, and a waste of time. On the other hand the proprietors who got my business tend to be the ones who also let me listen to any gear, understanding when it’s gear I’m not looking to purchase. I think that can be wise in building a relationship.

And frankly, my favourite high-end salesman’s “ up selling” worked on me.
I went there to listen to a pair of smaller Joseph audio Pulsar stand mounted speakers that were within my budget. I thought they were absolutely terrific. And he said I should take a listen to the next models up, which were a floor stander, the Joseph Perspectives. I saw the price and I told him those were out of my budget. But he said that’s OK, I’ll set them up for you anyway. And once he did I was blown away and absolutely smitten. They were just better.
And those became my new target speakers, with me telling him “ OK now you’ve got me stretching my budget. I’ll be back when I have the money…”

And I ended up buying those speakers from him, thought it took something like another year before I could comfortably pay for them. so playing the long game worked out for him. And I’ve been extremely happy with that purchase.
 
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Ha… am I reading between the lines the customers like me are difficult? :D

As for reception, the type of salesman who just want a very easy and fast sale - quickly sell the customer on something - there could be some friction there. But I found that most retailers geared to audiophiles recognized that we are a quirky and often picky lot, and so we’re ready to accommodate that.

The best dealers for me were the ones who recognized I didn’t need any sales pitches, I knew when I was doing and when I’m looking for, and they could just sit in front of the system, let me operate things myself and just leave me be until I’m finished. And so long as the situation permitted it, I would often spend hours listening. (but always sensitive to the fact I’m dealing with somebody running a business and if there is another customer to deal with, I wasn’t going to suck up all the time of the dealer).

Often enough, I would have narrowed my speaker choice down to a couple of lab speakers and would go back-and-forth between two dealers deciding which to buy.

Since some dealers have been very accommodating to me, they have become my go to, and so I’ve taken my business to them over the years. And if I purchase this loudspeaker from one of them, I also try to take my business to the other as well if I need any peripherals.

I guess what I’m saying is that I know that I’m a picky bugger, and can take up some time auditioning gear, but I’m very sensitive that these people are trying to make a living and I don’t ever want to be wasting anybody’s time.

So I never misrepresent myself pretending that I’m interested in buying a certain loudspeaker just because I want to sit and listen to it. I’m going to take up that time it’s going to be because I’m ready to buy the speaker if I like it. On the other hand, a proprietor may allow me to listen to gear I could never afford, and I make sure he understands “ I’m not looking to buy this, but if you are fine, playing the system for me I’m up for listening.”

I know that some audio salesman don’t want to play systems for people who are not going to buy that system. They would be viewed as tire kickers, and a waste of time. On the other hand the proprietors who got my business tend to be the ones who also let me listen to any gear, understanding when it’s gear I’m not looking to purchase. I think that can be wise in building a relationship.

And frankly, my favourite high-end salesman’s “ up selling” worked on me.
I went there to listen to a pair of smaller Joseph audio Pulsar stand mounted speakers that were within my budget. I thought they were absolutely terrific. And he said I should take a listen to the next models up, which were a floor stander, the Joseph Perspectives. I saw the price and I told him those were out of my budget. But he said that’s OK, I’ll set them up for you anyway. And once he did I was blown away and absolutely smitten. They were just better.
And those became my new target speakers, with me telling him “ OK now you’ve got me stretching my budget. I’ll be back when I have the money…”

And I ended up buying those speakers from him, thought it took something like another year before I could comfortably pay for them. so playing the long game worked out for him. And I’ve been extremely happy with that purchase.
That sounds like the best method of accommodating a customer like you. Let them have the run of the house and show them the best and the other gear too and let them go home and digest stuff and then make some decisions. That approach always worked for me very well and I was trained and mentored by some of the best speaker salespeople and reps too. It's not a race to see who can slam the most customers by the months end as it is for some salespeople but it's a slow race for me that builds relationships and a following of loyal customers.
 
After living with the Quad ESL 63s on top of gradient, subwoofers for quite a while for several reasons, I decided to replace them with skinnier profile box speakers. After living with a spacious boxless-sounding presentation, any trace of boxiness and loudspeaker stuck out and I was trying to avoid that. I ended up replacing the quads with Von Schweikert VR4 Gen 2 speakers which had blown me away in terms of sounding ultra three-dimensional, full range and lacking a boxy signature. The one demerit was that I found the overall timbre of the sound, voices instruments, a bit bland.
I really generally liked those loudspeakers, but the perception of their tonality never changed, and overtime that was why I sold them, especially to replacement with a speaker whose tonality I loved.

the speakers on top look like the cheap dolby labs bouncy speakers with those titled angles does it do good atmouse ?

VR4SRMKII-1.jpg
 
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one becomes accustomed to the sound of a speaker and then all other sound foreign until replacement time comes and then the process repeats.
Yes, it seems like acclimation is definitely a thing.
 
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the speakers on top look like the cheap dolby labs bouncy speakers with those titled angles does it do good atmouse ?

View attachment 403273

That’s a different model.

The ones I had were an earlier model, not slanted in the front. But they had a rear ambiance tweeter that you could dial to taste.

They were really excellent loudspeakers. Almost full range, very even even sounding from top to bottom, and cast an absolutely massive soundstage with very three-dimensional imaging. They were one of the few box speakers I could tolerate after owning the quads, which to me says a lot.

When I’m talking about the particular timber of those loudspeakers, I’m being very picky.
 
Thanks. The irony made my day. ;)
I really encourage you to study some literature on these subjects.
Once again, you're confusing the data and the reasoning.

can you believe that there is somewhere a forum where people have as much knowledge as you have on audio on things like what constitutes arguments, how reasonings should work, how to estimate probabilities...? Have you considered that you're not an expert on both?

I encourage you to study some literature on syllogism-based hypothesis (how they function and how to respond to them). Some people here could actually teach you a couple of things, apparently!
 
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You keep accusing others of being smug - but your posts come across, to me, as the smuggest I've ever read here.
not "others". Just a couple of persons.
I could be stupid, I haven't affirmed anything dogmatically. I don't see why one would treat this way someone who doesn't affirm anything.
I don't know how asking a question is smug, but alright. I never said anyone's claim were "ridiculous", but yeah, ok.
 
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Nothing wrong with raising such questions.

However…

That is sounding very suspiciously like the type of claims many subjectivist audiophiles make on behalf of many false or dubious claims, to reject the relevance of blind testing.

It seems to share the same quality of vagueness and as far as I can tell so far, it seems unfalsifiable, similar to the way subjectivist audiophiles provide unfalsifiable claims based on their epistemology.

You mentioned you were talking about audible differences, such as loudspeakers.

Let’s say someone in their normal emotional listening to music believes they have identified certain characteristics in a loudspeaker. How would this be falsifiable?

Well, it seems we could appeal to objective measurements. if the person believes that the speakers have a distinct emphasis in frequency response in a certain range, you can check the measurements to see if their impression is accurate… whatever their emotional state when sighted listening.

Or I suppose there is an outcome that in principle could lend evidential weight to your hypothesis.

Let’s say someone in their casual sighted listening to a loudspeaker claims to hear an obvious rise in the frequency response between 2k and 4K.

You could do a blind test to see if they really are identifying those Sonic characteristics.
But what if in blind testing - at one point they are listening to this very same speaker, but don’t know it’s identity - they do not recognize any such frequency emphasis?

Again, measurements to the rescue: let’s stipulate the speaker measurements actually do establish that two to 4K emphasis in the frequency response that the person claimed to hear during sighted listening.

So, in this case, you would have the measurements suggesting this persons sighted impressions are more accurate than the blind listening impressions.

So it could suggest less discrimination under the blind listening test conditions.

Would you agree this is one way that in principle he could lend evidence to your hypothesis?

The thing is, I’m not aware of any blind vs sighted tests that have come back with such results.
I didn't think the fact that it "ressembles" some subjectivists claims was enough to make it "suspicious" :)

I agree with everything you said, so I think I have failed to make myself understood.

I had in mind the "sighted listening vs blinded listening" debate that happened here. What I got from it was something like that:

Bob says "I like speakers A a lot more than speakers B" in sighted conditions.
People (here) would apparently reply: "no but you can't trust your experience, it was biased by the fact that you could see the speakers".
to that I question: "wouldn't you be differently biased in blind listening?"

Maybe we ought to prove that it's "better bias" – and I'm fine with that. Maybe we can prove that yes, to each context there is a specific biais but that there is relevant/reliable bias state.

Just asking how do we know.

Trying to raise the scepticism.

Like "either trust the measurements and nothing else, or justify why you trust this mental state over this other one"
 
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For things that sound different and where measurements would also indicate they sound different... this is similarly detectable in ABX tests. There is no controversy.
Do we know how reliable people are? I'd love some data with big samples!

And do they test similarly in sighted conditions? Cause I guess that's my issue here.
 
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If you're trying to say there's no perfect way of selecting a loudspeaker then I agree with you. Not sure there is anyone here who won't.
yes, ok, you're right. Just asking how do we determine that this "imperfect way" is more reliable?

kinda like when we were asking: if speakers sound different to me blinded/sighted, why would I trust the blinded experience when I'm gonna see them at home.
 
You're correct that one's psychological state significantly influences perception and performance.

The stress of a blinded listening session very well may alter the experience of the listener. But... there's no specific reason to believe this provides advantages to speakers that "truly" sound worse over ones that "truly" sound better. There's no reason to think blind testing favors cheap equipment over expensive equipment. So even if the listener is stressed in some way, is this introducing an error-causing bias?

It is well known that expectation bias can color our perceptions, and so there is a clear rationale for controlling for it. We do that with blind testing. The stress of blind testing can also color our perceptions in some way, but I don't think you have presented a compelling argument for why this is actually problematic.
Thank you for this clear and respectful answer.
I see what is lacking in my take. I will think about it more :)
 
It strikes me as improbable that the biases created by a blind test would sum to more than the sum of the biases from the non-hearing senses and the knowledge of which component is playing. I’d treat this as a rather remote possibility - Russell’s Teapot - until I see some applicable research. Furthermore, I suspect those types of biases are unstable and therefore error might disappear over the large population of blind tests.

In the meantime, controlling for non-audible sensory inputs and direct awareness seems like the way to go.

By the way, there have been a handful of blind tests conducted over long periods of time in peoples’ homes. Not of speakers to my knowledge.
Thank you for your informed reply.
I wasn't thinking so much of "more biases" but rather of "different biases" because it seems that being "biased" is note a purely quantitive issue. One bias can be a lot more problematic than 2 or 3 combined.
 
It wasn't clear to me that you were referring to only speakers. And I'm not sure that makes a difference.
Second conclusion/first question: does that not entail that ABX tests are not suited to assess the ability of individuals to distinguish/assess/listen critically?

So this is the hypothesis:
ABX tests are not a reliable way to test one’s ability to hear differences in music reproduction because the situation of the test itself involve great psychological bias.

It seems most of your first post on this thread is working on the assumption ABX tests don't show differences.

One reason not to think your hypothesis fits is that people do in fact discern quite small differences in blind testing of gear other than speakers. So emotional quality of using music does not seem to prevent them from doing this. This reliably works at levels of difference far smaller than is seen with speakers. Why would the emotional quality not prevent one from hearing small differences in amplifiers, but then prevent one from hearing larger differences in speakers?

Speaker testing is not so easily done blind, but people have been able to discern differences and preferences. Blinding the listeners improved their consistency of evaluation, and the agreement of groups upon which speakers were preferred. This consistency held even when people with various native languages were compared.
ok ok thank you, that helps me understand better what is at stake.

I guess my (poorly constructed) hypothesis intended to question a situation like this:

Bob listens to speaker A and B in sighted conditions and "chooses" A.
When listening in blinded conditions he chooses B.

Biases in sighted conditions immediately come to mind, such as marketing induced beliefs, expectation bias, etc. And we have good reasons to suspect they're terrible to assess how we experience speakers.

I guess I was asking: what do we know about the specific biases induced by blinded conditions?
 
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Maybe it helps when I say that with blind testing it is not just not seeing speakers but rather having no clues about what is playing. Of course you can't get rid of all clues. You are just testing for preference. It is not for gathering scientific info.
 
ok ok thank you, that helps me understand better what is at stake.

I guess my (poorly constructed) hypothesis intended to question a situation like this:

Bob listens to speaker A and B in sighted conditions and "chooses" A.
When listening in blinded conditions he chooses B.

Biases in sighted conditions immediately come to mind, such as marketing induced beliefs, expectation bias, etc. And we have good reasons to suspect they're terrible to assess how we experience speakers.

I guess I was asking: what do we know about the specific biases induced by blinded conditions?
Well, in blinded conditions there is very good correlation with speakers that adhere to a particular measured result in how they perform. That measured result also makes good sense with how you would expect a good speaker of good design to perform. In sighted conditions the measured performance of speakers vs what is preferred is all over the map. So that lends support to the idea blinded preference is less effected than sighted preference. Is there some bias that is present and over-rides all the others in strength in blinded listening? It would appear to be the performance of the speakers if there is one. It would logically seem removing the known biases are responsible for such a result more so than a different and stronger bias.

So Bob prefers speaker A sighted, and speaker B blinded. The odds are very high speaker B has better measured performance than speaker A. The performance guideline is an international standard using spin-o-rama data. That standard is CTA 2034.
 
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