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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

This seems to me to be advanced trolling. It's using a branch of philosophy (epistemology), which after 2500 years of debate between absolute geniuses has not yet agreed what are the limits of knowledge. Furthermore, everything in the 2500 years prior to Kahneman and Tversky might need revising.

Given the 2500 years of incomplete debate, are we really likely to move thinking forward through an ASR thread on the subject?
 
Well Godel's theorem for mathematical systems in the cute version says systems of knowledge can be consistent, but not complete. A system of knowledge cannot prove its consistency only within itself. The consistency seems of most practical use so far.
 
Measurements do not say much about perceived 'sound quality'.
Measurements can say something about signal fidelity which is an entirely different matter and what ASR is mostly about.
In general, measurements have to be really bad for that to become audible in well performed blind tests (which are very difficult to do properly).
There usually isn't any clear relation with subjectively determined 'sound quality'.
?? There certainly can be an experimentally validated relation to *preference* ,(e.g. speaker preference vs anaechoic chamber measured performance) and this of course requires blind comparison methods also.

Blind tests are not just for difference. I'd bet most of the blind tests conducted on any given day are for *preference*. See: the food industry.
 
?? There certainly can be an experimentally validated relation to *preference* ,(e.g. speaker preference vs anaechoic chamber measured performance) and this of course requires blind comparison methods also.

Blind tests are not just for difference.
Blind tests are all over the food industry and the perfume industry. All about preference. They test for whether or not something is discernible as well as if a target population has a consistent preference.
 
A big problem with uncontrolled sighted listening is that the results are highly nonrepeatable and change all the time. That's good if you want to keep yourself on the constant upgrade treadmill.

The "upgrade treadmill" seems similar at ASR as on other less measurement-oriented audio forums, even though most members here likely already have neutral measuring gear and speakers. Many people on ASR get extremely excited about newly announced audio gear from their favorite brands and are already on the upgrade path long before they even have seen how the new loudspeakers measure.
How is that different from any other audiophiles? :)
 
I don't need gaseous philosophizing to know that if I can't hear the difference between A and B without peeking, I can't hear the difference between A and B. Nor in my professional life do I need to dig into epistemology to measure rates of refractive index changes in chalcogenide glasses with ultrasonic excitation and correlate them with structural changes.

There is that old joke whose punch line is, "...and the philosophers don't even need the trash can."
 
I thought that on a forum so keen on waving scientific principles, there would be genuine interest in diving into the conceptual foundation of said principles – which necessarily imply a formal justification of the epistemology at the basis of our claims.
Now your asking us to justify science? Ill make it simple. You measure the difference between the input signal and output signal and if the difference is below a threshold the device/system is transparent (no audible difference between it and any other transparent device/system). The way to test this is with blind listening.
Designing audio devices is engineering based on physics.
 
The "upgrade treadmill" seems similar at ASR as on other less measurement-oriented audio forums, even though most members here likely already have neutral measuring gear and speakers. Many people on ASR get extremely excited about newly announced audio gear from their favorite brands and are already on the upgrade path long before they even have seen how the new loudspeakers measure.
How is that different from any other audiophiles? :)
There is enough information in this forum for anyone interested to have a sufficiently good idea of the threshold of audibility.

If a person decides to upgrade a DAC solely because the new one has a SINAD of 124 dB instead of 120 dB of the existing one, and therefore the new one is audibly superior (in normal use cases), I wouldn't consider the person (for this particular matter) to truly believe in objective science.
 
Philosophers didn't create the scientific method. Philosophy came after, trying to poke holes and to create epistemology around it. To my mind, that's the main difference. Science comes up with testable models, predictions, and explanations. Engineering converts these models into practical implementations. Philosophy sits in an armchair, after the fact, trying to come up with questions about what was done and why it may be all wrong.
Is this a joke? so one can actually say something that's blatantly false without any form of source/proper argument to back it up and get away with it? and this place pretends to be serious?

you just proved you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and that you have no fear in affirming things on the topic anyway. The exact behaviour you say you despise.

I'm facepalming myself out of that thread if that level of arrogant ignorance is tolerated in a place that clams to be science oriented. What a joke.

The first forms of the scientific method comes from philosophers. The modern science was created by two philosophers.
 
The "upgrade treadmill" seems similar at ASR as on other less measurement-oriented audio forums, even though most members here likely already have neutral measuring gear and speakers
I wonder about this. Quite a lot of people first pop up here because they wanted to upgrade something, and ASR is now one of the top Google responses to any question on audio. So there seems to be a steady stream of "new upgraders". There are also people for whom tweaking their kit is a hobby and wherever they get advice, they'll end up buying something new.
 
Is this a joke? so one can actually say something that's blatantly false without any form of source/proper argument to back it up and get away with it? and this place pretends to be serious?

you just proved you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and that you have no fear in affirming things on the topic anyway. The exact behaviour you say you despise.

I'm facepalming myself out of that thread if that level of arrogant ignorance is tolerated in a place that clams to be science oriented. What a joke.

The first forms of the scientific method comes from philosophers. The modern science was created by two philosophers.
You have convinced me that there is a yawning need for you to create "Audio Philosophy Review"

Many philosophers believed in alchemy, in spirits and gods.
 
Is this a joke? so one can actually say something that's blatantly false without any form of source/proper argument to back it up and get away with it? and this place pretends to be serious?

you just proved you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and that you have no fear in affirming things on the topic anyway. The exact behaviour you say you despise.

I'm facepalming myself out of that thread if that level of arrogant ignorance is tolerated in a place that clams to be science oriented. What a joke.

The first forms of the scientific method comes from philosophers. The modern science was created by two philosophers.

Yes, it was a joke. Sorry. But I do find ironic your choice of wording, having previously accused me of being "disagreeable" and "showing bad grace".
 
?? There certainly can be an experimentally validated relation to *preference* ,(e.g. speaker preference vs anaechoic chamber measured performance) and this of course requires blind comparison methods also.

Blind tests are not just for difference. I'd bet most of the blind tests conducted on any given day are for *preference*. See: the food industry.
I never mentioned blind tests nor preference.

My remarks, however, were not about blind testing though but the lack of relation between perceived (subjective found) sound quality and measurements (electronics and in a different degree about transducers)
 
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This is where things are measured and tested.
Is this a joke? so one can actually say something that's blatantly false without any form of source/proper argument to back it up and get away with it? and this place pretends to be serious?

you just proved you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and that you have no fear in affirming things on the topic anyway. The exact behaviour you say you despise.

I'm facepalming myself out of that thread if that level of arrogant ignorance is tolerated in a place that clams to be science oriented. What a joke.

The first forms of the scientific method comes from philosophers. The modern science was created by two philosophers.

Perhaps if you could begin by pointing out the unknown of some particular component in audio reproduction and the audible problems it imposes we could find some common ground?
 
700 pages on, at least to me the ground is well trodden that measurements sufficiently describe electronics.

With that in mind and accepted, what approaches do ASR members take to in-room acoustic measurements and their evaluation? Do you find them useful or do you dial in a room by best practices and ear only?
 
measurements sufficiently describe electronics.

With that in mind and accepted, what approaches do ASR members take to in-room acoustic measurements and their evaluation? Do you find them useful or do you dial in a room by best practices and ear only?
Have you read Toole and do you understand his suggestions?
 
Have you read Toole and do you understand his suggestions?
I haven't read Toole. I'm aware of some of the suggestions for room design contained within through reading discussions here, but not aware of suggested measures.
 
Oh man. :oops:
I agree.

When does the philosopher feed the hungry?
Where is the road that the philosopher paved or the bridge that he built?
Which sufferer in pain was nursed by the philosopher?
Does a philosopher get your dead car running again?
Can a philosopher heat your house in a power outage?
How many research foundations are funded by philosophers?
How many recording studios are run by philosophers?

Tell the needy, the hungry, the destitute, the sick and the downtrodden that the philosopher will be 'round to help them.

Yeah ... right. :rolleyes:

Jim

Jim,

Has it not occurred to you that none of those things would matter or happen if we had no reason to take any of those actions?

If you advocated helping the needy, the downtrodden, the hungry, the destitute, the sick…, what would be your reason?

Surely you would have some reason to motivate such an action, right?

Now you may or may not have thought it through thoroughly. There’s a good chance that like most of us you are making some unexamined assumptions along the way, just the way audio subjectivists are aware of some of their unexamined assumptions that are worth pointing out.

We want good reasons for what we do right?

The fact is you are going to inevitably be treading into philosophical waters in trying to have a good reason for helping the needy or doing anything else. Good philosophical reasoning leads to those good reasons and increase the foundation for why you ought to do any of that, and also helps you not make other important mistakes that can lead to deleterious actions.

I mean, if for instance someone is asked “ Why take care of a sick person?” And the response is “ because it just feels like the right thing to do” then that’s problematic.

Because validating that principal would also validate plenty of the awful things people have done because “ it felt like the right thing to do.” Slavery once felt natural to many people. So did racism. Feelings against interracial marriage, and countless other things we’ve been able to correct overtime.

It’s by digging down and examining assumptions and intuitions, the the meat of philosophical inquiry… whether you are calling it philosophy or not… that we uncover our inconsistencies or poorly justified assumptions, which allows us to course correct.

If you are for instance, in a western country like the USA, much of the nature of your society, laws, politics, rights, ethical concerns, etc. arose from the input of philosophical thinking, as well as from particular philosophers. You’ve got democracy that goes right back to the ancient Greeks philosophers, notions about a Republic from Roman philosophers and expanded upon later by philosopher is like John Locke. You’ve got the role that Locke and others like John Stewart Mill played in developing liberalism and constitutionalism.
You have the influence on theories of government from philosophers like Hobbes and Rousseau. You’ve got the contribution of ethical theories from Bentham and Mill and others.

All this stuff did not just stay stuck in people musing from an armchair. It literally helped shape the world you are living in.

This very forum ultimately relies on many principles that were promulgated during the philosophical movement called The Enlightenment, which helped advance the role of science in society.

So to be on a forum like this questioning the worth of philosophy and philosophers is like a fish swimming in water saying “ who needs water?”

Finally, the idea that philosophers are not actually doing real good in the world is naïve. I’m sorry to say. Plenty of philosophers have motivated ethical movements that did real work in the world.

For instance, the Australian philosopher Peter Singer. One can argue with ethical theories, but in terms of the real world, he has been hugely influential in pushing people to work for all sorts of goods, from animal rights to human rights, to all sorts of organizations that fight poverty, to sponsoring all sorts of charity initiatives that are doing real work in the world, etc.

Singer himself has been contributing 15% of his income for many years to charities and has been upping that amount to now he’s giving something like 30% of his income to help others.

I don’t know about you, but that’s more than I give to charity! And he is certainly devoted far more of his life to promoting or advocating for charities than anybody I know. There are quite a number of other contemporary philosophers who would fit that bill as well.

So to wrap things up, while I am no expert on this myself, nonetheless I think your take on philosophers and the worth of their work is just a tad… superficial. ;-)
 
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Does anyone reading this thread at the moment really not understand the basic reasons to conduct blind listening tests if they want to know what sound waves they prefer?

There seems to be a lot of bad faith argumentation going on. Unless I am overestimating people's ability to grasp the basics.
At the root of all the argumentation is a rigid misunderstanding of the realities of the sighted listening effect,

I have tried to help you understand what is going on, in every way I could, but there is a fundamental disconnect getting in the way.

I mean, to me, I would’ve thought that it would strike someone familiar with my posts as silly to think I take a position against blind testing or the usefulness of measurements. It’s impossible for you to have not noticed just how much time I’ve devoted to defending the usefulness of measurements and blind testing. Not to mention why in the world would I have blind tested so much of my equipment if I didn’t understand the problem of sighted bias?

If someone were actually trying to understand what I’m writing, they would keep that context in mind. You are just never going to understand unless you look at the wider context of what is being argued, rather than being triggered by just certain sections of what I write.

Take for instance if somebody had found themselves in an Ethics/Moral Theory course,
they would encounter questions from the teacher like “ why is rape wrong?”

The naïve reaction to this would be “ oh my gosh! This person doesn’t even know why rape is wrong! Otherwise, why would he be asking? And since he doesn’t see anything wrong with rape then he must be fine with rape and his underlying motivation must be that he is advocating for rape!”

But of course that entirely misunderstands what is going on?.

The question is being asked not because
“ there is no good reason why rape is wrong.”
The point of questions is to understand why rape is wrong! It is by carefully examining assumptions and answering them in a coherent way that you build the foundations for understanding “ why rape is wrong.”

I have been as explicit as I can that this is what I’m doing in my own questioning.
I have said until blue in the face that I defend the relevance of blind testing and measurements, and that continuing to ask prodding questions like “ what use is blind testing or measurements” and putting pressure on responses, isn’t about arguing against blind testing measurements. It is about getting the foundation that JUSTIFIES their use!!!

I’ve given my own justification numerous times. I’m interested in seeing how other people justify it as well.

The problem is that some here, especially yourself, don’t seem to be paying attention to this context. And so every time you see me pushing back or asking again “ why bother with measurements or blind testing?” it’s like the person thinking the philosophy *prof, when asking “ why is rape wrong?” is somehow naïve about why rape is wrong or is even trying to remove the foundations for why it is wrong or is even advocating for rape.
It’s just a total misunderstanding of what is going on.

But perhaps it’s worth dropping some well-known quotes that relate, for you to chew on a bit:

“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”- Aristotle.

“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” F. Scott Fitzgerald

Perhaps the most salient:

“He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that.” - John Stuart Mill


*(no I don’t view myself as some philosophy professor teaching things to people here. I hold that most people here are smarter than I am in many ways. I’m just bringing an approach I am used to using and that I think is worthwhile, and it helps sharpen my own views when people push back)
 
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