• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Thank you for your reply.

I guess we have to distinguish what was intended and what is really happening.
Prescription doesn't start with "ordering people to do something". An advice can be a prescription.

All Amir's reviews end up with a "recommend/don't recommend" conclusion. I'm not saying it's a clear prescription but there is ambivalence and I believe the general tone here is: "we recommend the gear that is the most truthful to the signal".

Also, as I was saying: "are measurements everything?" is a question that goes beyond description.
Although a word "recommendation" is used , it can be just as well understood as part of description i.e. "how does this thing compare to other alternatives".

The 700 pages exists, because there are two fundamentally different schools of thought regarding how the description should be made:
a) It should be based on scientifically valid methods - in this case valid measurements and properly controlled listening tests.
b) It should based on personal opinions of self appointed gurus, who have a special ability to find the truth regarding audio equipment quality.
 
Although a word "recommendation" is used , it can be just as well understood as part of description i.e. "how does this thing compare to other alternatives".

Well, recommendations are often grounded on a description but I don't see how a recommendation can pretend to be just a description.
Then again, I have no issue with ASR prescribing certain gear. The criteria is clear and explicit. It's honest and efficient. Nothing wrong here. But it is a prescription: if you want "good audio", choose audio that's truthful.

Do you really believe that if you were to conduct a survey among ASR members asking "do you think flat speakers are better or just different than non flat speakers?" people wouldn't say they're better?

The 700 pages exists, because there are two fundamentally different schools of thought regarding how the description should be made:
a) It should be based on scientifically valid methods - in this case valid measurements and properly controlled listening tests.
b) It should based on personal opinions of self appointed gurus, who have a special ability to find the truth regarding audio equipment quality.

Yes, and if people try to decide between two ways of approaching gear, they're tying to decide which is better, and that is not pure description. That is exactly prescription.

This is actually just semantics. You used the word "should". If you're prescribing a mode of description, you're still making a prescription.
 
Ok ok! sorry, I wasn't clear enough (English is not my first language – not an excuse, just an explanation).

I'm gonna try to put it differently:

1) it's great that ASR is here to counterbalance all the audio-BS (I agree that the BS is the dominant culture of Hi-fi – in that regards, ASR is "resisting")
2) it's true that people get scammed all the time and it's a shame and we should fight it.
3) some people here are not getting scammed, they are well informed, and yet, when they admit to making (knowingly) a choice that is very likely biased, a number of members mock their position–almost as if they were going full audiogon.

In other words: I agree that we should be as objectivists as we can be in front of a crowd of subjectivists... but why be absolutely objectivists when conversing with objectivists who happen to be okay with a little subjectivism?
It is perfectly fine to express personal preferences, as long as one does not claim that they represent objective truth. There are several highly knowledgeable persons participating here who also own vinyl players and/or tube amplifiers event though they are fully aware that those do not represent the ASR objectivist ideal in sound quality.
 
exactly! why not ruse with our biased brain to make the best experience possible?

Do you believe you can benefit from learning about the biased experiences of others? I'm not sure what would be more individual than our personal set of biases, so does my homeopathy experience where it cured my hangnail issues make you want to try it? Maybe if I turn it into a really good story? Should I go to a medical convention and work to convince those there that they need to add homeopathy to their practice because it works for some people?

How about Peter Popoff's miracle spring water? There will be many who tell you their problems disappeared after they took a swig. If you want to make your life better, like theirs obviously is, why not try it to see if the placebo works for you too?

For most here, objective just means evidence based, rather than anecdote/story based.

Audio gear can be objectively characterized quite thoroughly, with transducers occupying a somewhat more nebulous space, as their performance will always include the room they are in, the head they are on, or the turntable they are attached to. In those cases, there is a lot more room for there to be real differences that won't show up in a suite of measurements, but that doesn't mean there is no correlation between measurements and end use results.

If you know that two shops are each selling a DAC which are identical in every way down to the thread of the screws on the case, except one has a faux tube sticking out, not connected to the internal circuit, but that lights up with the power switch, would you be swayed by those who tell you the tube DAC is more mellow yet more detailed, with a forward midrange but a recessed treble, and whatever other prose may follow, how likely are you to give it a whirl, or even give it any credence at all in terms of making your own buying decision? How about if this helpful person just won't stop promoting how wonderful it is, and that if you aren't hearing the difference that you are either deaf, or don't have a resolving enough system to appreciate the special nuance? Would you entertain that endlessly, or maybe ask them to provide actual evidence that this improvement was one based on the sound waves and not based on the brain just doing what it does and filling in blanks based on expectations?

How about things like shakti stones, or quantum field alignment devices, or any of the other crazy things that people will give amazing testimonials for. Do you have any interest in trying them out in your system? Probably not, no matter how well written the story is, because you just can't get yourself to be that dumb. The more people learn about how it all works, and the higher up the learning curve they go, the more they can use that knowledge to dismiss that which should be dismissed.

You believe ultra hi-res recordings just have to be better because stairsteps and all? Learn about sampling theory and the FOMO disappears because you understand what you would be missing. Would someone making claims that counter that make you feel differently about it? The same is true all through this industry that has no interest in educating their consumers, but are motivated to promote that ignorance. If you KNOW that something can't impact what hits your ears, how likely are you to give it a try because someone else wrote a story about how it impacted them?

All we are trying to do is show, with actual evidence (as opposed to unsupported claims) what people should be able to expect. From there, people can make whatever choice they want to.

You said earlier that the issue of cables can make you cringe...why? If people believe they have had veils removed, why shouldn't that be valid for you? Why shouldn't everyone try it , because maybe you'll experience it too?

You say we aren't dealing with life or death, so it doesn't really matter that much, but that's not really the point. We are more of a 'show me the evidence' kind of place than a strictly 'science' place.

but why be absolutely objectivists when conversing with objectivists who happen to be okay with a little subjectivism?

Subjectivism meaning willing to suspend disbelief and ignore evidence based on uncontrolled perception? Because we are an evidence based place, and most people come here to get away from all the storytelling to cut through the silly nonsense. If people can allocate their resources towards what has a chance of improving the sound quality (based on signal fidelity) of the waves that actually hit their ears, vs what happens after that, most here believe that is a more effective use of those resources if the goal is to actually improve the sound, rather than adding to the morass of confusion that too many count on. If the argument is that improving the signal fidelity doesn't lead to better sound (Generally speaking. Beyond some point, that won't be audible either.) then I'd like to see evidence, not stories.

I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to convince us of...
 
Well, recommendations are often grounded on a description but I don't see how a recommendation can pretend to be just a description.
Then again, I have no issue with ASR prescribing certain gear. The criteria is clear and explicit. It's honest and efficient. Nothing wrong here. But it is a prescription: if you want "good audio", choose audio that's truthful.

Do you really believe that if you were to conduct a survey among ASR members asking "do you think flat speakers are better or just different than non flat speakers?" people wouldn't say they're better?



Yes, and if people try to decide between two ways of approaching gear, they're tying to decide which is better, and that is not pure description. That is exactly prescription.

This is actually just semantics. You used the word "should". If you're prescribing a mode of description, you're still making a prescription.
I have to make one addition: This kind of play with semantics is also a reason why there are 700 pages on this topic. Please, let's not continue on this road.
 
It is perfectly fine to express personal preferences, as long as one does not claim that they represent objective truth. There are several highly knowledgeable persons participating here who also own vinyl players and/or tube amplifiers event though they are fully aware that those do not represent the ASR objectivist ideal in sound quality.

I enjoy my turntable and playing records, but don't have a tube amp because I'm a scaredy cat (600v on the plate? No thanks).
 
3) some people here are not getting scammed, they are well informed, and yet, when they admit to making (knowingly) a choice that is very likely biased, a number of members mock their position–almost as if they were going full audiogon.
Care to come up with some examples? What exactly is mocked here? I’m pretty sure the devil is in the details.
 
Do you believe you can benefit from learning about the biased experiences of others? I'm not sure what would be more individual than our personal set of biases, so does my homeopathy experience where it cured my hangnail issues make you want to try it? Maybe if I turn it into a really good story? Should I go to a medical convention and work to convince those there that they need to add homeopathy to their practice because it works for some people?

How about Peter Popoff's miracle spring water? There will be many who tell you their problems disappeared after they took a swig. If you want to make your life better, like theirs obviously is, why not try it to see if the placebo works for you too?

For most here, objective just means evidence based, rather than anecdote/story based.

Audio gear can be objectively characterized quite thoroughly, with transducers occupying a somewhat more nebulous space, as their performance will always include the room they are in, the head they are on, or the turntable they are attached to. In those cases, there is a lot more room for there to be real differences that won't show up in a suite of measurements, but that doesn't mean there is no correlation between measurements and end use results.

If you know that two shops are each selling a DAC which are identical in every way down to the thread of the screws on the case, except one has a faux tube sticking out, not connected to the internal circuit, but that lights up with the power switch, would you be swayed by those who tell you the tube DAC is more mellow yet more detailed, with a forward midrange but a recessed treble, and whatever other prose may follow, how likely are you to give it a whirl, or even give it any credence at all in terms of making your own buying decision? How about if this helpful person just won't stop promoting how wonderful it is, and that if you aren't hearing the difference that you are either deaf, or don't have a resolving enough system to appreciate the special nuance? Would you entertain that endlessly, or maybe ask them to provide actual evidence that this improvement was one based on the sound waves and not based on the brain just doing what it does and filling in blanks based on expectations?

How about things like shakti stones, or quantum field alignment devices, or any of the other crazy things that people will give amazing testimonials for. Do you have any interest in trying them out in your system? Probably not, no matter how well written the story is, because you just can't get yourself to be that dumb. The more people learn about how it all works, and the higher up the learning curve they go, the more they can use that knowledge to dismiss that which should be dismissed.

You believe ultra hi-res recordings just have to be better because stairsteps and all? Learn about sampling theory and the FOMO disappears because you understand what you would be missing. Would someone making claims that counter that make you feel differently about it? The same is true all through this industry that has no interest in educating their consumers, but are motivated to promote that ignorance. If you KNOW that something can't impact what hits your ears, how likely are you to give it a try because someone else wrote a story about how it impacted them?

All we are trying to do is show, with actual evidence (as opposed to unsupported claims) what people should be able to expect. From there, people can make whatever choice they want to.

You said earlier that the issue of cables can make you cringe...why? If people believe they have had veils removed, why shouldn't that be valid for you? Why shouldn't everyone try it , because maybe you'll experience it too?

You say we aren't dealing with life or death, so it doesn't really matter that much, but that's not really the point. We are more of a 'show me the evidence' kind of place than a strictly 'science' place.



Subjectivism meaning willing to suspend disbelief and ignore evidence based on uncontrolled perception? Because we are an evidence based place, and most people come here to get away from all the storytelling to cut through the silly nonsense. If people can allocate their resources towards what has a chance of improving the sound quality (based on signal fidelity) of the waves that actually hit their ears, vs what happens after that, most here believe that is a more effective use of those resources if the goal is to actually improve the sound, rather than adding to the morass of confusion that too many count on. If the argument is that improved signal fidelity doesn't lead to better sound, than I'd like to see evidence, not stories.

I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to convince us of...
Woaw, thank you for such a long answer.

I don’t think I’m trying to convince anyone. Rather, I’m trying to have my view (and its logic) understood. Disagreeing doesn’t always means one perspective must be unreasonable. I don’t feel like my reasoning gets understood, that is why I insist a bit, but do not worry, I will become a pure reader again if I feel that I’m getting on some nerves :)

I mostly agree with what you say. And I already know everything you’re « teaching » here. I haven’t posted but I’ve been reading you guys for a while. I feel that you were replying to a caricature of me, in a way :)

If I try to put it differently, I’ll say that your depiction of the situation is a little too black and white.

The homeopathy examples shows that perfectly to me. Life isn’t reduced to situations like « you have a cancer, do you choose chemotherapy or homeopathy? »
The audio quest cannot, as well, be reduced to « do you want these flat studio monitor or do you want to buy crystals to put on top of your amps? »

Many of life situations are grey. I fear when we make no room for the grey. Sometimes, on this threads, it feels like the grey is forbidden.

you ask : Do you believe you can benefit from learning about the biased experiences of others?

I do. But I want to ask something else: do you believe you can benefit from the experience of a fictional character? I believe I can. I believe movies or novels are more than just entertainment. I believe there are important, valuable informations there. I believe that is the value of art.

So I believe reducing everything to « evidence-based » is unfair.

And I also believe that, in many aspects of your life, you agree with that. As I was saying: you do act most of the time as if you have free will–yet, there are no solid evidence of that. Also: our love for music (from which I believe comes our interest for audio gear) is not evidence-based.

I understand the will to « get away from all the storytelling to cut through the silly nonsense ». What I don’t understand is: why, on a place dedicated to the means of domestic art reproduction, make so little room for the part that is not evidence-based?

(What I said about cables: I don’t want to pay more than 50 bucks because I already have to buy speakers, amps, etc. If another element is expensive, it’s bad news. That’s about it. It suits me very well to read on ASR that cables don’t make a difference.)
 
I have to make one addition: This kind of play with semantics is also a reason why there are 700 pages on this topic. Please, let's not continue on this road.
I'll stop to be polite, but that was not "playing with semantics". That was a proper argument whether you saw its point or not :) (we choose describing methods because of a goal we set for ourselves–I'm just asking to question the goal).
 
What I don’t understand is: why, on a place dedicated to the means of domestic art reproduction, make so little room for the part that is not evidence-based?

Because the purpose of audio reproduction is exactly that: faithful sound reproduction. The purpose of music creation and performance is evoking emotions.

For someone who argues for not confusing positions, it would seem that you are confusing the most basic two for this particular context.
 
Because the purpose of audio reproduction is exactly that: faithful sound reproduction. The purpose of music creation and performance is evoking emotions.

For someone who argues for not confusing positions, it would seem that you are confusing the most basic two for this particular context.
Oh, you're not very charitable in the conversation. That's too bad. I'm not a conflictual person, I won't engage in a rhetoric battle to look wittier.
Do you actually believe your answer adresses everything I said?

You can affirm that "the purpose of audio reproduction is exactly that: faithful sound reproduction" but it's too easy to affirm that is the end all and be all of the discussion.

Let's assume that it is. It doesn't forbid to question it.
If I ask "why is it its purpose?" what will you say? "so that we can have the truest experience of music?" and if I ask why it matters to have the "truest experience of music", what will you say?

(Any argument based on "how the artist intended it" is inherently flawed, I hope you know that)
 
Last edited:
why, on a place dedicated to the means of domestic art reproduction, make so little room for the part that is not evidence-based?

Because unsupported anecdote doesn't help with making informed decisions. Now, I'm not talking about how a knob feels or how nice the UI is, but claims that are exceedingly unlikely, like those that permeate this industry, are not useful to what we are trying to accomplish. Indulging these claims just isn't how we are wired.

For me, I stumbled across this place after buying what for me what a pretty expensive DAC. Thousands of dollars. I came here and read the review that showed it was in fact a very well performing DAC, but as I read the comments it became clear that many thought it would not sound any different to any of a big pile of others that also met some basic thresholds. Very skeptical, I set up a listening test with the most basic of controls, and found that all of the improvements I heard suddenly disappeared like a fart in the wind. No matter what DAC I subbed in, I got the same 'CAN'T TELL THE DAMN DIFFERENCE" result, initially to my serious dismay.

Once I got over myself, I sent the DAC back, and allocated those resources to a theater set up with 3xJBL708Ps and 6xJBL705Ps. For me, that reallocation has given ME a lot more pleasure than if I had kept that DAC.

There are some who spend more than that on a cable, then come here to tell stories about it, then get offended when others are discouraged from following this same path of buying based on ignorance. We don't indulge that much because it doesn't do anything but dilute the value of this place to most of the membership.

There are plenty of places where storytime is welcome and encouraged, so it isn't like there is a dearth of venues if that's what one wants to read or share. This just isn't that place.

Why do people want to come here and tell these stories, knowing what we are about?
 
You can affirm that "the purpose of audio reproduction is exactly that: faithful sound reproduction" but it's too easy to affirm that is the end all and be all of the discussion.

That's the premise of ASR-type testing. Audio equipment was created and engineered to faithfully document a sound event, a musical performance. Anything else it's used for is ancillary and not its primary function. Sound is a physical phenomenon, best studied by applying science, not emotions, and so is sound reproduction.

f I ask "why is it its purpose?" what will you say? "so that we can have the truest experience of music?" and if I ask why it matters to have the "truest experience of music", what will you say?
See above.

Oh, you're not very charitable in the conversation. That's too bad. I'm not a conflictual person, I won't engage in a rhetoric battle to look wittier.
Do you actually believe your answer adresses everything I said?
Why do you keep widening the context to what was neither mentioned nor intended? I responded to your specific statement, and yes, it addressed everything you said in that specific statement, quoted for reference. Do you want me to address all of your posts and all your statements ever made in every one of my responses?
 
At the designers or users end there is no possible method of properly fixing, correcting or modifying an inherently "flawed recording" using coloured equipment!
 
Because unsupported anecdote doesn't help with making informed decisions. Now, I'm not talking about how a knob feels or how nice the UI is, but claims that are exceedingly unlikely, like those that permeate this industry, are not useful to what we are trying to accomplish. Indulging these claims just isn't how we are wired.

For me, I stumbled across this place after buying what for me what a pretty expensive DAC. Thousands of dollars. I came here and read the review that showed it was in fact a very well performing DAC, but as I read the comments it became clear that many thought it would not sound any different to any of a big pile of others that also met some basic thresholds. Very skeptical, I set up a listening test with the most basic of controls, and found that all of the improvements I heard suddenly disappeared like a fart in the wind. No matter what DAC I subbed in, I got the same 'CAN'T TELL THE DAMN DIFFERENCE" result, initially to my serious dismay.

Once I got over myself, I sent the DAC back, and allocated those resources to a theater set up with 3xJBL708Ps and 6xJBL705Ps. For me, that reallocation has given ME a lot more pleasure than if I had kept that DAC.

There are some who spend more than that on a cable, then come here to tell stories about it, then get offended when others are discouraged from following this same path of buying based on ignorance. We don't indulge that much because it doesn't do anything but dilute the value of this place to most of the membership.

There are plenty of places where storytime is welcome and encouraged, so it isn't like there is a dearth of places to go if that's what one wants to read or share. This just isn't that place.

Why do people want to come here and tell these stories, knowing what we are about?
But everything you just wrote can coexist with reasonable questioning of the "greyish" area, right?

Everything Matthooper said about sighted listening, for instance.

Or are you saying something like "if we open that door, there is no coming back"?
 
That's the premise of ASR-type testing. Audio equipment was created and engineered to faithfully document a sound event, a musical performance. Anything else it's used for is ancillary and not its primary function. Sound is a physical phenomenon, best studied by applying science, not emotions, and so is sound reproduction.
So I was just questioning the foundation of the "ASR philosophy" or whatever you want to call it. This is a circular argument.
Why do you keep widening the context to what was neither mentioned nor intended? I responded to your specific statement, and yes, it addressed everything you said in that specific statement, quoted for reference. Do you want me to address all of your posts and all your statements ever made in every one of my responses?
Ok, so now, you're clearly disagreeable.

You may be an expert in audio, but you're not in argumentation. You can't take apart arguments/a thesis at your will without modifying its meaning/relevancy.

We do not need to continue if you show so much bad grace. What's the point of replying if you're not interested in the hypothesis itself? You just want me to be 100% wrong? No point in finding something that could be interesting?

I have read this website for months to get a grasp of people's reasonings, because I was interested in their logic. I come to share mine and this is what I get. Was I attacking you?

Of course, if you never question the self-grounding purpose of "faithful reproduction", then there is no point in conversing.

is the question of the thread a trap? no one can answer anything else than "everything"?
 
But everything you just wrote can coexist with reasonable questioning of the "greyish" area, right?

What is reasonable is the question. What's reasonable out in storyland isn't reasonable here.

Everything Matthooper said about sighted listening, for instance.

Matt gets a lot of pushback if you haven't noticed, but he has carved out his unique place here over many years as he walks his very fine line.

Or are you saying something like "if we open that door, there is no coming back"?

It's more like we aren't really interested in unsupported anecdotal claims. They aren't informative. They increase the noise in the signal. We are looking to inform those interested in being informed with what can be supported, not what can just be casually claimed.

For those looking to come here to tell us what we are missing, come with evidence not stories.
 
So I was just questioning the foundation of the "ASR philosophy" or whatever you want to call it. This is a circular argument.

Ok, so now, you're clearly disagreeable.

You may be an expert in audio, but you're not in argumentation. You can't take apart arguments/a thesis at your will without modifying its meaning/relevancy.

We do not need to continue if you show so much bad grace. What's the point of replying if you're not interested in the hypothesis itself? You just want me to be 100% wrong? No point in finding something that could be interesting?

I have read this website for months to get a grasp of people's reasonings, because I was interested in their logic. I come to share mine and this is what I get. Was I attacking you?

Of course, if you never question the self-grounding purpose of "faithful reproduction", then there is no point in conversing.

is the question of the thread a trap? no one can answer anything else than "everything"?

I don't need or want to argue with you, but I was hoping I could clarify things a bit about ASR. Judging from your reaction, it would seem that you take what I say as an affront. If that's the case, then you're right, there's no point in further conversation. I'll try one more time. ASR is based on scientific principles, used to study sound reproduction. You can chose to attach emotions and other ancillary attributes to engineered devices, and even argue that TONS of people do so today, but that doesn't make that line of reasoning any more valid than the use of drugs to alter reality. And yes, tons of people do that, too.
 
I think measurements are not also everything, but still the final objective of any instrument.

We are quite fortunate that we can know whats going on in an acoustic situation in which something sound unpleasant.

Is a room mode? Are harmonic distortion or clipping in the amplifier? A bad tweeter?

In video domain, you can have your RGB space, white temperature point, contrast ratio and other stuff that determines how will behave your TV or your tablet.

So on audio, even more necessary since more elements of interaction with the ambient are present.

Nobody buy a car without knowing its consumption, power, safety features… To me, detailed audio measurements should be mandatory by market regulations :cool:
 
Back
Top Bottom