Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[MattHooper]

My suspicion is that genuine large differences have a chance of cutting through the sighted listening effect.

As a general principal, that would have to be true. Our auditory system would have to have been accurate enough, broadly speaking, and identifying specific sounds in order for us to survive.

Obviously, if we make the differences large enough, there’s not going to be any controversy that even sighted listening would be accurate. As I mentioned before, No doubt subjects would reliably discern between Taylor Swift Singing and Donald Trump talking, in both sighted and blind conditions.

If we make the differences large enough between loudspeakers same thing. You don’t need blind testing to have confidence in hearing the difference between a big PA system and a tiny sound bar.

So it seem as the differences become smaller we start to reach more gray areas, where biases can start to become more of a nuisance variable.

I think it’s always good of us to remember just how surprising bias effects tend to be!
That is, of course their nature: they show up when you never really expected they were there. And this shows up in sighted versus blind speaker testing as well, of course, where the subjects no doubt would’ve been surprised at the biases driving their perception of speakers.

Hence scientific controls if we really want reliable information.

I often do the “ listening with eyes closed” test for loudspeakers. It’s certainly not a substitute for scientific controls, but I think it could be surprisingly helpful sometimes.
I close my eyes and then I just asked myself “ OK just going on the sound alone, what size or type of speaker would I picture I was listening to?

Plenty of speakers don’t sound as impressive once I do that. Even big, gorgeous, high end loudspeakers at shows have given me the impression of glorified boomboxes, once I started analyzing the sound that way.

Speaker to me always has to pass this
“ close my eyes test”. If the sound remains gorgeous with my eyes closed, that to me is a good sign.

 

[krabapple]

Yes. Can you recall if it made a big impression on Hooper? If it did, would he be repeating the exact same 'conundrum' today, 2 years later?

Eternal return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Eternal return (or eternal recurrence) is a philosophical concept which states that time repeats itself in an infinite loop, and that exactly the same events will continue to occur in exactly the same way, over and over again, for eternity.

 

[MattHooper]

Eternal return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Eternal return (or eternal recurrence) is a philosophical concept which states that time repeats itself in an infinite loop, and that exactly the same events will continue to occur in exactly the same way, over and over again, for eternity.

The curse of all forums. SINAD, anyone?

Of course there are various reasons certain conversations Reoccur

 

[Marss72]

@Marss72 sometimes there is a button sequence/cheat code that can change the setting. I'd inquire with Chord.

I won't argue your subjective conclusions, but I do believe most or all of the Chord DACs have higher output than average, which will tend to advantage them in non level-matched comparisons, since louder sounds better and makes high and low details more audible (Fletcher-Munson). The Mojo output, per Google, is over 3 volts.

Thx for your reply and i might just inquire with Chord. I did not pay attention to output/volume but i noticed what the Mojo did to my system. It's all about the timbre/soundsignature where i hear the difference.

 

[ahofer]

I did not pay attention to output/volume but i noticed what the Mojo did to my system. It's all about the timbre/soundsignature where i hear the difference.

Now you are baiting us.

I'm 99% certain it was all about the volume mismatch. Nothing personal, there's just far, far too much evidence against your assertion.

 

[Marss72]

Now you are baiting us.

I'm 99% certain it was all about the volume mismatch. Nothing personal, there's just far, far too much evidence against your assertion.

That's your conclusion you made for me. Nothing personal too but only numbers/calculations don't tell how hifi equipment sounds. And sorry i can most definetely in many cases hear how an amp or speaker sounds and what the differences are. But i guess you guys only look at numbers and calculations, do you guys actually listen and enjoy?

 

[ahofer]

That's your conclusion you made for me. Nothing personal too but only numbers/calculations don't tell how hifi equipment sounds. And sorry i can most definetely in many cases hear how an amp or speaker sounds and what the differences are. But i guess you guys only look at numbers and calculations, do you guys actually listen and enjoy?

1. No, it's the only conclusion the evidence supports. If you didn't do blind, level-matched comparisons, your assertion is incredible (in the literal sense). Plus, the Chord output voltage issue is well known, but the point stands for most good-performing DACs.
2. With electronics, transparent is transparent, so the numbers tell whether the equipment will be indistinguishable within the limits of human hearing and/or whether they will drive the downstream equipment without artifact. Nothing further is necessary. It's fun to pretend, but you can't prove you can hear the difference, and the burden of proof is on you (we can't prove a negative).
3. You've committed several of the oldest cliche fallacies in this list:

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I've been to live music concerts three nights in the last two weeks. If you'd like to see the music we like to listen to, visit the longest thread on this site - "what are we listening to now" and remember, we didn't go to a subjectivist site and tell them they are all foolish and preoccupied. You decided to do try to sell that here.

This conversation can be continued in the thread below (if it doesn't get moved in by a moderator before then), which may be the second longest on this site.

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Many speaker designers claim that making a speaker that measures perfectly flat is very easy. Every one here agrees that once you put the speakers in your room every thing will be different and you will need to equalize digitaly. So who cares if a speaker measures a little bit better here and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Marss72]

1. No, it's the only conclusion the evidence supports. If you didn't do blind, level-matched comparisons, your assertion is incredible (in the literal sense). Plus, the Chord output voltage issue is well known, but the point stands for most good-performing DACs.
2. With electronics, transparent is transparent, so the numbers tell whether the equipment will be indistinguishable within the limits of human hearing and/or whether they will drive the downstream equipment without artifact. Nothing further is necessary. It's fun to pretend, but you can't prove you can hear the difference, and the burden of proof is on you (we can't prove a negative).
3. You've committed several of the oldest cliche fallacies in this list:

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I've been to live music concerts three nights in the last two weeks. If you'd like to see the music we like to listen to, visit the longest thread on this site - "what are we listening to now" and remember, we didn't go to a subjectivist site and tell them they are all foolish and preoccupied. You decided to do try to sell that here.

This conversation can be continued in the thread below (if it doesn't get moved in by a moderator before then), which may be the second longest on this site.

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Many speaker designers claim that making a speaker that measures perfectly flat is very easy. Every one here agrees that once you put the speakers in your room every thing will be different and you will need to equalize digitaly. So who cares if a speaker measures a little bit better here and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I don't feel the need to continue this conversation. You have your opinion and i have mine.

 

[BDWoody]

Just moved a few in.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't feel the need to continue this conversation. You have your opinion and i have mine.

We have evidence based opinions. You have.....opinions.

 

[olds1959special]

What is the Fiio house sound? I have tried two or three Fiio DAC/amps and they all seemed kind of bass heavy. I think I have been able to alleviate this using a short silver IC between the DAC and my amp.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So the short interconnect will fix bass heaviness??????? Come on you have been around the forum enough to know better.

 

[DVDdoug]

The amp (or interconnects) won't boost the bass. ...Unless you're using an amp with bass/treble controls or EQ.

Normally amplifiers (or any electronics) don't have a particular "sound" unless you over-drive an amp into clipping (distortion). Almost all electronics have flat frequency response that's better than human hearing. (Speakers & headphones are a different story.)

Audiophoolery discusses the REAL characteristics that affect sound quality.

 

[BDWoody]

What is the Fiio house sound? I have tried two or three Fiio DAC/amps and they all seemed kind of bass heavy. I think I have been able to alleviate this using a short silver IC between the DAC and my amp.

I don't think we need a new thread for this, so let's just add it here.

 

[olds1959special]

So the short interconnect will fix bass heaviness??????? Come on you have been around the forum enough to know better.

No, but the short silver IC does change the sound a little, making it a little leaner and more tipped towards the treble, which alleviated the issue to some degree, and now I am not hearing the bass heaviness in such a bad way.

 

[solderdude]

No, but the short silver IC does change the sound a little, making it a little leaner and more tipped towards the treble, which alleviated the issue to some degree, and now I am not hearing the bass heaviness in such a bad way.

serious question... How can a cable do that ?
While it is true that silver is a better conductor it does so for all frequencies so it cannot increase treble more than lower frequencies.
What phenomenon would cause this 'tilt' ?

Even when a copper interlink would be 10ohm and a silver one would be 0ohm the difference in a 10k load is 0.008dB... for all frequencies.

 

[olds1959special]

serious question... How can a cable do that ?
While it is true that silver is a better conductor it does so for all frequencies so it cannot increase treble more than lower frequencies.
What phenomenon would cause this 'tilt' ?

Even when a copper interlink would be 10ohm and a silver one would be 0ohm the difference in a 10k load is 0.008dB... for all frequencies.

Yes, I'd like to understand this too. It's an unshielded, solid conductor cable, if that matters. The cable I was using before is a WBC Mogami 2964 stranded copper cable, same length.

edit: just switched back to Mogami cabling, for my subwoofer cable too. I just can't handle the harsh sound of silver cables.

 

[solderdude]

3m copper cable compared to 1m silver cable (on a DT1770).
You can't see the copper cable trace as it is completely hidden by (overwritten) the the silver cable trace.
In other words... even wit headphones that have a varying impedance the resulting audio is exactly the same.
Distortion and time domain also did not change the slightest.

 

[Newman]

Yes, I'd like to understand this too. It's an unshielded, solid conductor cable, if that matters. The cable I was using before is a WBC Mogami 2964 stranded copper cable, same length.

edit: just switched back to Mogami cabling, for my subwoofer cable too. I just can't handle the harsh sound of silver cables.

Please consider the possibility/certainty that your impressions are cognitive bias, and do not exist in the sound waves themselves. These impressions that you report are due to your use of sighted listening to judge the sound waves.

Despite extended arguments to the contrary, even on this site and by members who should know better, you cannot trust sighted listening to judge the attributes of the sound waves.

cheers

 

[MattHooper]

Please consider the possibility/certainty that your impressions are cognitive bias, and do not exist in the sound waves themselves. These impressions that you report are due to your use of sighted listening to judge the sound waves.

Sensible. Always a distinct possibility. Especially for technically implausible claims like this one.

Despite extended arguments to the contrary, even on this site and by members who should know better,

You don’t say! Tell us more!

you cannot trust sighted listening to judge the attributes of the sound waves.

I just bought Revel Salon 2 loudspeakers. I’m told they sound excellent to other people in blind listening.

Unfortunately, I don’t own facilities in which to listen to my speakers in blinded scientifically controlled conditions like those test subjects. So I’m stuck with sighted listening.

If only I could perceive the actual sound of these expensive speakers in my own home!
But I’m stuck not being able to judge the attributes of the sound waves.

Drat!

Any suggestions for how I can hear how these things actually sound in my listening room?