Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[solderdude]

"I want to buy avr but I can't see how it looks. I can't know how it sound. I just want to know how it measures."

There are plenty of pictures to be found on any AVR. There is also plenty of info about functionality and connectivity and features. You can' tel how any of them will sound in your situation nor can this 'info' from others be of relevance to you.
What usually is not known (other than some basic specs, which may even be fictional) is how it technically performs.
That's where ASR comes in for the measured model(s). So therefore those visiting ASR are mostly interested in measurements.

 

[Drunkinho]

Electronics I feel I can safely choose based on measured performance without being worried about how it will sound, as I don't expect my electronics to really have a sound. Their job is to get out of the way and let me hear the music as it was delivered.

So basically my speakers should sound the same on Pioneer LX305 and my previous Denon x1500h without calibration (or with calibration also) in the same room. Right?

There are plenty of pictures to be found on any AVR. There is also plenty of info about functionality and connectivity and features. You can' tel how any of them will sound in your situation nor can this 'info' from others be of relevance to you.
What usually is not known (other than some basic specs, which may even be fictional) is how it technically performs.
That's where ASR comes in for the measured model(s). So therefore those visiting ASR are mostly interested in measurements.

And I will not know how it will sound in my situtation by looking at the measurements.

 

[Purité Audio]

If the component isn’t adding audible distortion ( which will be evident from its measurements ) then it will not have a ‘sound’.
Keith

 

[Drunkinho]

I will repeat my question.
My speakers should sound the same on Pioneer LX305 and my previous Denon x1500h without calibration (or with calibration also) in the same room. Right?
If no what is responsible for sound differences? At what volume levels those differences will be visible when talking about distortions?

 

[Purité Audio]

If both are not adding audible distortion and clipping would count as audible distortion then they should sound the same.
Keith

 

[BDWoody]

So basically my speakers should sound the same on Pioneer LX305 and my previous Denon x1500h without calibration (or with calibration also) in the same room. Right?

I don't know what speakers you have, how loud you listen, how big your room is it how far your listening position is, or much about these two AVRs, so I can't answer that question.

Competent amps properly chosen for the job at hand, meaning they are going to be operated within their designed operating envelope will generally speaking sound the same.

And I will not know how it will sound in my situtation by looking at the measurements.

How well do you understand them?

Edit:

 

[Drunkinho]

I don't know what speakers you have, how loud you listen, how big your room is it how far your listening position is, or much about these two AVRs, so I can't answer that question.

If "two different avrs are not adding audible distortion and clipping would count as audible distortion then they should sound the same" then it shouldn't matter what speakers I have etc. As for the volume level I am not talking about some absurd level only normal (-40db, -30dB) listening level.
Same speakers, same room, same speakers position, same listening position, same volume level.
Which avr parts defines that "sound" (or no sound)?

Competent amps properly chosen for the job at hand, meaning they are going to be operated within their designed operating envelope will generally speaking sound the same.

Define competent

How well do you understand them?

Which of the Amir measurements will tel me which avr will have "no sound"?

 

[Wesseling Audio Lab]

Come one. Let's be real. Not everyone got time to listen to 2, 3, 4 avrs before choosing "the right one" let alone doing blind tests.

True, but what I'm getting at is select speakers that measure equally well and audition those and choose your favorite. Then there's the room!
It's not easy unless your designing your own speakers along with room acoustics plans. But it is extremely time consuming.

 

[solderdude]

So basically my speakers should sound the same on Pioneer LX305 and my previous Denon x1500h without calibration (or with calibration also) in the same room. Right?



And I will not know how it will sound in my situtation by looking at the measurements.

No of course not as that depends on your speakers, room, preferences, recordings, possible effects engaged.

Measurements WILL tell you if it can supply enough power in your speakers, if distortion is low enough to be inaudible, if the frequency response is correct, if the internal DAC performs well enough and there are no 'red flags' that might have a negative impact on the sound.
Sadly, as it is not measured, you won't know how the clipping behavior is.

Chances are that when you are playing the LX305 and x1500h at exactly the same settings within the parameters of both amps and would compare them blind you, most likely' would not be able to say with confidence which AVR is being used.
As you are never going to put that to the test (you already made up your mind) you will never know if that is a correct statement.

 

[Drunkinho]

True, but what I'm getting at is select speakers that measure equally well and audition those and choose your favorite. Then there's the room!
It's not easy unless your designing your own speakers along with room acoustics plans. But it is extremely time consuming.

I get it but I would've to spend countless hours on checking different speakers in my room to find speakers that will sound good without calibration or the calibration will not have to correct as much?

Chances are that when you are playing the LX305 and x1500h at exactly the same settings within the parameters of both amps and would compare them blind you, most likely' would not be able to say with confidence which AVR is being used.
As you are never going to put that to the test (you already made up your mind) you will never know if that is a correct statement.

That depends if you are talking about sound without calibration or with calibration. I am not buying avr with calibration system to not use it. Especially if it is Dirac. And especially if I do not have perfect room (sofa next to the back wall) so I need to rely on the calibration to get wanted sound.
I know that the same speakers sound different after calibration on those two avrs in my case. But than again Denon - Audyssey. Pioneer - Dirac. I prefer Pioneer "sound" after calibration anyway. Brighter sound. More details etc.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If "two different avrs are not adding audible distortion and clipping would count as audible distortion then they should sound the same" then it shouldn't matter what speakers I have etc. As for the volume level I am not talking about some absurd level only normal (-40db, -30dB) listening level.
Same speakers, same room, same speakers position, same listening position, same volume level.
Which avr parts defines that "sound" (or no sound)?

Define competent

Which of the Amir measurements will tel me which avr will have "no sound"?

We've had threads on what is audible. If you have low enough noise (with no music do you hear nothing at near max volume), low enough THD (-70 db or .03% or below), and frequency response within +/- .1 db from 20 to 20,000 hz you are unlikely to hear any diffference. So if you are not taxing the amps on power which by your description you are not, and they don't interact with the speakers to alter frequency response which they probably don't, most likely both will sound the same.

So noise, distortion and frequency response are what you need to know along with power vs power needed by your speakers.

 

[solderdude]

I get it but I would've to spend countless hours on checking different speakers in my room to find speakers that will sound good without calibration or the calibration will not have to correct as much?


That depends if you are talking about sound without calibration or with calibration. I am not buying avr with calibration system to not use it. Especially if it is Dirac. And especially if I do not have perfect room (sofa next to the back wall) so I need to rely on the calibration to get wanted sound.
I know that the same speakers sound different after calibration on those two avrs in my case. But than again Denon - Audyssey. Pioneer - Dirac. I prefer Pioneer "sound" after calibration anyway. Brighter sound. More details etc.

When the calibration methods differ the sound will differ.
The target may differ, the mic method may differ.

When you intend to use that feature and rely on it then you are in the hands of the AVR manufacturer and they will likely sound different despite both being 'calibrated'.
As there is taste/preference involved you are basically on your own.
The measurements will still tell you about technical performance of the device but not about the calibration.

Its not the speakers that sound different nor the amps/dacs that have a 'sound' in this case but the calibration method is the culprit.
As that is brand/type dependent you could say that different brands/types have a different sound after calibration.
Under the conditions I mentioned earlier they should sound the same without any calibration or other trickery being used... if they both measure 'competently'.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I get it but I would've to spend countless hours on checking different speakers in my room to find speakers that will sound good without calibration or the calibration will not have to correct as much?


That depends if you are talking about sound without calibration or with calibration. I am not buying avr with calibration system to not use it. Especially if it is Dirac. And especially if I do not have perfect room (sofa next to the back wall) so I need to rely on the calibration to get wanted sound.
I know that the same speakers sound different after calibration on those two avrs in my case. But than again Denon - Audyssey. Pioneer - Dirac. I prefer Pioneer "sound" after calibration anyway. Brighter sound. More details etc.

One of the findings of research Toole et al did on speakers indicates that in the majority of rooms speakers with good frequency response and the correct off axis response profiles are likely to sound good in most rooms and are easier to get to sounding good. They also need less correction other than at 500 hz and below which is the region where room most upset speaker response. You can have overly reflective or dead rooms, but most domestic rooms aren't too big an issue this way.

Even then speakers differ enough there will be some differences you'll hear. Using the measurements with knowledge you can eliminate many, narrow your search to just a handful, and likely get a very good result without having to audition dozens of speakers.

So get well designed speakers, apply correction to fix room effects in the lower frequencies and you'll have a very good chance at very good sound. There are people with some unusual preferences who may prefer something else or might manage good sound with other speakers. If you like it, then it is good. No one can argue with preference.

 

[Drunkinho]

So get well designed speakers, apply correction to fix room effects in the lower frequencies and you'll have a very good chance at very good sound.

I got very good sound after calibration and some little target curve tuning.
Without calibration it sound bad. Basically exactly as the speaker measurements shows. Boosted low frequencies because of the listening position and front speaker placement also (not far enough from the from wall).
Dirac saves my day here.

 

[pma]

IMO it is still a big challenge to measure non-standard designs like large electrostatic speakers to get some valuable outcome resulting in correlation of measurements and listening experience.

 

[Blumlein 88]

IMO it is still a big challenge to measure non-standard designs like large electrostatic speakers to get some valuable outcome resulting in correlation of measurements and listening experience.

As a lifelong ESL user I fully agree. I also have experienced rooms where you just cannot get the ESL to work, and with others you can get excellent results even in some rooms box speakers struggle. I think what will need to be done to untangle that are measurements around the listener's head. Compare results with some well designed speakers and panel speakers to see what is needed. Or better research which can model what happens at the listeners head based upon knowing a speakers full radiation pattern.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I got very good sound after calibration and some little target curve tuning.
Without calibration it sound bad

Your approach is wrong. You should get the best setup you possibly can, with no EQ such as Dirac, Audyssey running. This usually works best with speakers with a flat anechoic behaviour with smooth dispersion. It requires optimum location and minimising room nodes. Then you can run tools like Dirac, but be prepared to not totally trust them.

 

[Drunkinho]

My approach is correct because it gave me wanted results keeping in mind room acoustics. I do not have time and I simply do not want to play with other speakers. I was able to get sound which i like. Why should I change anything?

 

[Theta]

Your questions highlight two totally different ideas that are commonly conflated. The fact that some words have multiple meaning (at least in English) simply makes things worse.

Take the words "quality", "better" or "best". To an electrical engineer, they are not emotional. They have precise meanings, such as greater capacity at the same cost, lower cost for the same capacity, greater bandwidth, lower noise or greater signal strength. IOW, they describe technical improvements, all of which are precisely measurable and quantifiable. And precision is not just advantageous, it is necessary. If the spec chart says 219 mV plus or minus 2%, that is exactly what they meant. So when an engineer uses the word 'quality", they are describing the parameters of a system.

But people on the street use those words, too, and they use them in very imprecise ways. 'That beer is higher quality", or "That speaker sounds better". In that use, the words simply describe someone's subjective emotional reaction. They don't describe anything technical, not do they adhere to a measuring system. So in that context, saying that something is higher "quality" is meaningless, because emotional (or subjective) descriptions are ambiguous. They have no precise meanings, are not calibrated and are not reproducible. For someone who wants to argue without being pinned down, this is an advantage. When objections are raised, they can simply say, "You don't understand. That's not what I meant".

It's similar to picking out a pretty girl and saying, "That one looks better!". Although your description implies a higher level of quality, there is no quantification.

Same words ... totally different applications.

Jim

p.s. - you can't trust opinions, but you can trust data.

Many speaker designers claim that making a speaker that measures perfectly flat is very easy. Every one here agrees that once you put the speakers in your room every thing will be different and you will need to equalize digitaly. So who cares if a speaker measures a little bit better here and there, it should hardly influence your choice.

 

[JustJones]

This is impossible and I think you know it. It is impossible to not know anything about any avr, speaker etc. And it is also absurd
"I want to buy avr but I can't see how it looks. I can't know how it sound. I just want to know how it measures."

You were referring to AVR's which is what my response was about you want to start shifting off into speakers then that's a different thing. I know how AVR's looks as there are plenty of photos and manuals I can download. I also should know how it sounds if it's been measured. More to the point I should know it doesn't have a "sound" , so yes it's possible. What's impossible is to know a darn thing about it by watching YouTube reviews and reading subjective babbling nabobs waxing poetic about blacker backgrounds and velvety midrange.