Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[BDWoody]

The finish is really a matter of taste, granted these speakers will look out of place in a "bourgeois living room". Fans of minimalism "Form follows function" advocates will love this finish.

I'm wondering what percentage of buyers are, and will remain very much single.

 

[Killingbeans]

They may look DIY, but at least they are expensive.

They really do look DIY.

I kept searching the web, trying to find info. Found some pictures an thought "Okay, I guess that's the prototype. Where's the final product?"... then it dawned on me.

It's sad that we live in a world where anything, not made from chipboard with a vinyl "veneer", can be labeled as "a museum-worthy masterpiece"

 

[DonH56]

I'm wondering what percentage of buyers are, and will remain very much single.

Interesting that taste is apparently not part of the "bourgeois". Which literally means "middle class" but was steered into an insult (Marxism revived?) Plenty of folk out there these days wanting to remain single (or at least claiming that's what they want...)

As for Turnbull, he has a rather eclectic background and following, that does seem at odd with the bourgeois class. From a random article after a quick search:

Devon Turnbull is the founder of Ojas, a high-end audio company. Previously, he was the streetwear pioneer behind Nom de Guerre. (NY Times)

His Audio Speakers Are Coveted by Supreme, Mark Ronson and Prada (Published 2022)

Devon Turnbull is the founder of Ojas, a high-end audio company. Previously, he was the streetwear pioneer behind Nom de Guerre.

www.nytimes.com

Nom de Gurre: Grown-Up Boys' Wear for Bar or Barricades - also NY Times

 

[MAB]

Interesting that taste is apparently not part of the "bourgeois". Which literally means "middle class" but was steered into an insult (Marxism revived?) Plenty of folk out there these days wanting to remain single (or at least claiming that's what they want...)

As for Turnbull, he has a rather eclectic background and following, that does seem at odd with the bourgeois class. From a random article after a quick search:

Devon Turnbull is the founder of Ojas, a high-end audio company. Previously, he was the streetwear pioneer behind Nom de Guerre. (NY Times)

His Audio Speakers Are Coveted by Supreme, Mark Ronson and Prada (Published 2022)

Devon Turnbull is the founder of Ojas, a high-end audio company. Previously, he was the streetwear pioneer behind Nom de Guerre.

www.nytimes.com

Nom de Gurre: Grown-Up Boys' Wear for Bar or Barricades - also NY Times

He offers a different kind of pretentiousness than the traditional HiFi market. Every picture I see of him and his gear is carefully curated. He found a great business in selling expensive retro-style gear in the current artistic client. Just a generation ago, those were man-cave and garage-only speakers for most people. That the gear appears to adhere to retro-form over function makes me wonder about the sound.

 

[DonH56]

He offers a different kind of pretentiousness than the traditional HiFi market. Every picture I see of him and his gear is carefully curated. He found a great business in selling expensive retro-style gear in the current artistic client. Just a generation ago, those were man-cave and garage-only speakers for most people. That the gear appears to adhere to retro-form over function makes me wonder about the sound.

From his web page (ojas.nyc):

OJAS is the creative pen name of Devon Turnbull. As a university student studying Audio Engineering he started using the name across a variety of disciplines including graffiti, music, graphic design and clothing design. In 2003 Turnbull co-founded the clothing brand Nom de Guerre with Isa Saalabi, Wil Whitney and Holly Harnsongkram. For the next decade, while primarily working in fashion, the name OJAS was kept alive on sound sculptures Turnbull was crafting for himself and a growing number of audio enthusiasts around the world. With a particular interest in high efficiency speakers and low powered tube amplifiers, Ojas audio equipment aims to bring realistic, natural sound to the listener. These products are the result of two decades of experimentation, engineering and explorations in the audio underground.

Does not say he finished the degree, and does not lend to me a sense of engineering competence. The articles I skimmed are more about the art than the sound. Seems like he has found a great niche, or several of them, however. In keeping with the thread, has anyone seen any measurements? Weren't his speakers discussed in Stereophile a while back?

 

[MAB]

From his web page (ojas.nyc):

I picked up on that too. When I think of sound sculptures, I think of this:

Does not say he finished the degree, and does not lend to me a sense of engineering competence. The articles I skimmed are more about the art than the sound. Seems like he has found a great niche, or several of them, however. In keeping with the thread, has anyone seen any measurements? Weren't his speakers discussed in Stereophile a while back?

The claim is he was a student of Audio Engineering, but he leaves no evidence that Audio Engineering is his guiding principle. It is possible to make a retro 2-way high efficiency system with a big lens that sounds great, and demonstrate with measurements. If done, it would indeed be a refreshing change from the pretentiousness of audio.

 

[RoedeBaer]

What I don't understand right now is the following:

How comes that a unit fails a measurement test big time, but is still considered as one of the best sounding devices 'out there'?

Marketing BS and bought or influenced reviews aside, there's still some devices like the Emotiva RMC-1, which totally failed the testing - with Amir stating this has hardware failures, which cannot be corrected and you will buy absolutely no high end here. Hence it is still highly recommended even against e.g. the Anthem AVM70 despite all of it's software bugs when it comes to sound quality.

Is there really no one to trust 'out there' or is a technical measurement one thing and the sonic quality a totally different one?

For me I'm trying to figure out what to buy as my new AVR or Pre Processor. I want to spend something round 2-2.5k Euros, which brings me e.g. to an offer for a new Denon X8500AH or a used Emotiva RMC-1. The first did excellent test results, the latter a really miserable one. Still the Emotiva is often mentioned first when it comes to sound quality. So which one sounds better in reality?

 

[amirm]

Nobody assessing sound quality by ear is providing you any kind of reliable information. Even lousy gear these days can sound very good to excellent.

Measurements level the playing field, providing reliable data as to how well engineered the product is.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Replace "sound quality" with "sound preference" at it will make sense.

Measurements will be the same for all people, but people prefer different sound. If you want to know why some people like "lesser" measuring gear, you need to pay attention to reviewers who talk about sound quality, ideally in comparison to other products. You will likely see/hear the terms "warm" and "rich" and "punchy bass" a lot. Some people love lots of harmonic distortion, see tube amp fans for an extreme example.

Or learn how measurements translate to sonic output, but that takes time and work.

Personally, I prefer accurate, but not because I like dead flat sound. It's because my room screws things up, and the combination between accurate gear and my room effects is pleasing to me.

 

[PuX]

sound is much more subjective than TV screens for example. it has a lot to do with how our short term memory works, I think.
you can place 2 TVs next to each other and compare side by side but with speakers or amps it is much more difficult and by the time you have switched your memory of device 1 won't be detailed enough to compare vs device 2. and you can't quite "freeze frame".

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Is there really no one to trust 'out there' or is a technical measurement one thing and the sonic quality a totally different one?

At the very least, a good set of measurements let you know that the designer understood their trade and the manufacturer built it well. A bad set of measurements let you know that the designer was guessing and/or the manufacturer is incompetent.

Electronic Engineers have known for about a century what makes an electronic device work properly in the audio bands. Modern test gear lets us measure way beyond what we can hear (in terms of frequency accuracy, distortion and noise). High precision testing used to be extraordinarily expensive, but now for a few hundred dollars you can perform electronic tests at home that (e.g. multitone, FFT, noise spectra) that I simply couldn't do at all with 1000s of dollars of test gear a few decades ago.

 

[Drunkinho]

Ok but at the end we are looking for sound which is great/better for our own ears which may not choose avr or speakers with better measurements.

 

[Wesseling Audio Lab]

Ok but at the end we are looking for sound which is great/better for our own ears which may not choose avr or speakers with better measurements.

Okay, but you might be surprised in a blind test and pick a more accurate speaker than the one you had preferred previously when you had your eyes on it.

 

[RoedeBaer]

I totally understand what you're saying and I mostly agree with everything you say about metrics, sound quality, etc. From a technical point of view this is completely correct.

But that is not the question here. The bottom line for me as a consumer (not as an engineer) is whether the poor measurement results are audible. Audible distortions, audible frequency response limitations, audible dynamic limitations, take your pick.

This isn't about splitting hairs. Of course, a technocrat can also interject here that all audibility depends on my ears, the room situation and the other electronics used. But I'm sure you get my point

 

[RoedeBaer]

...and now, as the question has been moved into a thread with a 675 pages of discussion, I'm optimistic I will find my answers somewhere whithin here. There's no question which hasn't been asked before by someone else. Or answered

 

[Drunkinho]

Okay, but you might be surprised in a blind test and pick a more accurate speaker than the one you had preferred previously when you had your eyes on it.

Come one. Let's be real. Not everyone got time to listen to 2, 3, 4 avrs before choosing "the right one" let alone doing blind tests.

 

[JustJones]

Ok but at the end we are looking for sound which is great/better for our own ears which may not choose avr or speakers with better measurements.

That's fine as long as you're using your own ears and not your ears, eyes, and the subjective prattle of salesmen and reviewers. Since you're right we don't all have time to do properly conducted blind tests I find it makes more sense to trust the measurements.

 

[Purité Audio]

Come one. Let's be real. Not everyone got time to listen to 2, 3, 4 avrs before choosing "the right one" let alone doing blind tests.

That’s where understanding loudspeaker measurements comes in handy.
Keith

 

[Drunkinho]

That's fine as long as you're using your own ears and not your ears, eyes, and the subjective prattle of salesmen and reviewers.

This is impossible and I think you know it. It is impossible to not know anything about any avr, speaker etc. And it is also absurd
"I want to buy avr but I can't see how it looks. I can't know how it sound. I just want to know how it measures."

 

[BDWoody]

Come one. Let's be real. Not everyone got time to listen to 2, 3, 4 avrs before choosing "the right one" let alone doing blind tests.

Electronics I feel I can safely choose based on measured performance without being worried about how it will sound, as I don't expect my electronics to really have a sound. Their job is to get out of the way and let me hear the music as it was delivered.

I don't want someone adding a pile of salt and pepper (or dirt as the case may be) to every dish I get, no matter how much I like salt and pepper, or how much the chef thinks it makes everything better. I'll add my own if I choose.

Speakers are in a different category. The speakers work as part of a system with whatever room they are in, so are much more difficult to just select based on measured performance, although that is getting much better with the data we can get these days. I did end up buying my speakers (JBL708Ps) based solely on measured data, and have no regrets.

It does take some effort to understand what all the numbers and graphs mean, and that can be a bridge too far for many.