Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[SIY]

How do you like to match levels? Pink noise? White noise? band limited pink noise? Sine tone?

If you have two speakers with different FR or FR range, you may not be able to match it. Using something as simple as a flat speaker vs smiley face EQ’d speaker, do you have the midrange neutral but the the treble and bass seem heightened, or average SPL with noise where you will feel the midrange is lacking?

I think you can still have science and blind switching but allow the listener to adjust volume…. What if one speaker handles higher SPLs well but the initial volume is within the performance threshold of both?

Again, the specifics of the claim were lacking, so getting to the details of procedure requires that blank to be filled in.

 

[trioderob]

Depends on what you're specifically trying to claim with your boast (your claim was quite vague). Be specific, and designing the experiment becomes much easier.

I am not 100 percent sure what I would be trying to prove ...... I THINK that the point would be which speaker would the majority of people find the most pleasant in their home to listen to ?

 

[Mikig]

My experiment is not scientific, but it gives me some clues about what I am looking for.

I can say that I am setting up a new system in a smaller room.
I have two preamps to test plus my Pre90 (which I do not love, but I am satisfied with) as a tester: I know that it measures very well:

the first is audibly hissing, you can easily hear a hiss from the speakers from the listening seat.
The second emits a very light hiss that you can only hear by putting your ears close to the speaker. So it is not perceptible from the listening seat.
The Topping is silent.
My consideration is the following. The first preamp is subjectively very pleasant, but in a small room, where you can clearly perceive its background hiss, it makes me wonder one thing: what do I lose in listening in terms of environment and micro details? the answer comes from the second preamplifier and the Topping: I lose the small environmental information, some clicks and clicks of the instruments, and who knows what else, which are probably cancelled by the background noise that however when the music starts obviously remains present.
Nothing dramatic, we are not talking about ground noise or particular crackles, but I think that this can be a testimony, on how the overall final result is affected in a certain way, when some device in the chain is clearly less performing and therefore cannot have record-breaking measures in terms of noise and distortion.
For the rest, from a musical/subjective point of view, it would be necessary to make a blind between the three, but doing it alone would not make much sense

 

[SIY]

I THINK that the point would be which speaker would the majority of people find the most pleasant in their home to listen to ?

That is at least more specific. So to put some evidence behind your claim, you'd want to do something more akin to Toole's preference testing.

 

[Timcognito]

I THINK that the point would be which speaker would the majority of people find the most pleasant in their home to listen to ?

It's been done rigorously already by others and the answer is the most accurate one, most realistic, the one with linear frequency response. So if know someone who might have $100k gold standard testing apparatus, that does the tests (100's of tests) you just have to read and go to the dealer or trade show and listen for yourself.

but what do I know ? -I am just a character on the web

Bingo, me too, I don't have a Klippel NFS, just my aging ears and they got ten years more in the hobby on you.

 

[Multicore]

if I had not gone to the show how would I have worked backwards with a handful of test charts to arrive at my speaker choice ????

We believe, based on various solid evidence, that there exists a relationship between the electroacoustic performance of a speaker and what we hear.

Understanding this relationship leads you to the speakers.

So I wonder what you are driving at with those four question marks. Do you believe the relationship doesn't exist? Something else?

 

[bodhi]

The elephant in the room is whether buying and listening to hifi equipment for 40 years make someone more credible reviewer. Especially if tens or hundreds of thousands was spent.

If not, then most of these discussions wouldn't have happened, so some people believe in that. I don't and I don't know why it could be so, but it's something better left unsaid in hobbyist circles.

 

[mikemcsw]

I believe most DACs would be nigh unto impossible to tell apart under actual controlled testing conditions (using real music with real speakers or headphones, with comparable filters and no gain riding), as opposed to just casual listening sessions, almost guaranteed to cause people to perceive differences where none would exist. At some point, the difference in the signal coming out of the DAC is small enough that there is just nowhere for an audible difference to hide.

Let's say you have two buildings in front of you, and one is 1km high, and the other is 1km + 1mm high. That's roughly what we are talking about in terms of how big these differences are between most fundamentally competent DACs.

Claims are easy.

Streamers, assuming they are competent and aren't futzing with the signal, are not going to change the signal, so there won't be a difference to be heard (unless of course people just do uncontrolled listening comparisons). See any other forum and you can read all about what people hear between streamers. You will also find NO evidence to support those claims.

thanks for your input. I can buy there should be no difference on digital inputs.
Don't agree on DACS. Curious, have you personally ever compared a multibit schiit or a chord compared to an ess dac? What dac do you personally use?
To me, personally, there was an immediate obvious difference. We can agree to disagree, i have no problem with that. I am mostly curious if anyone is brave enough to suggest they have heard differences in different streamers. Hell, people still argue if CD transports can sound different than streamers...
If no one is willing to stick their neck out and say they believe they have ever heard any differences between different digital inputs, I would probably be lazier in my own comparsion testing and rely only on cost and functionality...hence the main purpose of this thread...personally, i opted for higher priced dacs even after hearing an apparent majority regarding "all dacs sound the same", where i likely won't follow this same path regarding streamers.

 

[Beave]

thanks for your input. I can buy there should be no difference on digital inputs.
Don't agree on DACS. Curious, have you personally ever compared a multibit schiit or a chord compared to an ess dac? What dac do you personally use?
To me, personally, there was an immediate obvious difference. We can agree to disagree, i have no problem with that. I am mostly curious if anyone is brave enough to suggest they have heard differences in different streamers. Hell, people still argue if CD transports can sound different than streamers...
If no one is willing to stick their neck out and say they believe they have ever heard any differences between different digital inputs, I would probably be lazier in my own comparsion testing and rely only on cost and functionality...hence the main purpose of this thread...personally, i opted for higher priced dacs even after hearing an apparent majority regarding "all dacs sound the same", where i likely won't follow this same path regarding streamers.

And now for the usual questions: When you compared those DACs and found "an immediate obvious difference," what controls did you implement in your listening? Did you match levels precisely? Did you implement double-blinding?

 

[Newman]

Don't agree on DACS.

Based on uncontrolled home listening tests, right?

Curious, have you personally ever compared a multibit schiit or a chord compared to an ess dac?

There would be no point unless one of them was so badly executed that it failed to achieve audible transparency, which is trivially easy for a DAC to achieve at any price point, even $9.

What dac do you personally use?

Irrelevant. Welcome to ASR, where reality gets in the way.

To me, personally, there was an immediate obvious difference.

Based on uncontrolled home listening tests, right?

We can agree to disagree, i have no problem with that.

Well I DO have a problem with that, because here on ASR, facts overrule things like 'agreeing to disagree'.

And it's a fact that two DACs with reasonably flat frequency responses and modest-for-DACs distortion are going to be audibly transparent, and that means the sound waves alone from them are indistinguishable when played at the same volume and the sighted listening effect is held in check. If you are perceiving an "immediate obvious difference" it is (figuratively) 95% going to be due to a combination of different playback levels and sighted listening effect, and 5% due to one of the DACs being deliberately designed to sound coloured (or the specific sample being faulty).

 

[Theta]

What's important to you is personal to you, you can like anything you want.
My take:
'science' is way too loose a term. How about that #2 engineering is important and that measurements demonstrate whether the engineering is good. That's the objective part.
#2 do I like it ... can be as subjective as you like.

#3 do I want to communicate my subjective view of the sound to someone else, or do I want to compare one subjective impression with another... well then the subjective impression must have been made with appropriate controls or it's just personal to you and meaningless to anyone else. That's science.

In most applications Science establishes norms and consensus. Energy storage is an example. In electro acoustics, science has not been a prevalent factor, Engineering effort and orientation differ widely and are all over the place. Klippel measurements are considered by most members of this forum to be only scientific validation of a speaker systems. Any other of type assessments or critics are considered subjective opinions, this is a mistake and misleading.

 

[Purité Audio]

The Klippel NFS is the most comprehensive and accurate measurement system currently extant, why wouldn’t we use it?
Keith

 

[Geert]

I see NO harm done if the customer is pleased with the product.

Drug dealers agree.

 

[SIY]

Klippel measurements are considered by most members of this forum to be only scientific validation of a speaker systems.

Perhaps the best validation but far from the only one. Since I don't have $100k to drop on one, I get by with gated measurements at various angles combined with near-field. It's not as good as Klippel, but per Pareto, it will find 80% of issues in a speaker. I would hardly call that "subjective opinion."

 

[TLEDDY]

I normally do not add to technical discussions, primarily because I believe that the more elite members of this Forum far outstrip me in their knowledge and understanding of sound reproduction. Now, having paid attention, often in awe of their scrivenings, I will give my thoughts.

Measurement by our fearless leader using the Klippel will provide a solid foundation on how they will perform ‘Subjectively’. Essentially, if a test gives poor results deviating from flat response, it is not going to sound good to
the vast majority of critical listeners.

Then comes the argument concerning “Things that cannot be measured.” I posit that such things are fundamentally unique to the individual listener. Certain deviations from linear may appeal to an individual; designers are aware of the phenomenon and design euphonic error into the product (sounds like tubes!).

This discussion concerns DACs… I think that if any DAC is measured as transparent, then they indeed sound the same as another measuring the same. Any deviation from that, and I am calling that an error, might sound ‘better’ to a listener based on personal preference.

Finally, I point to my tag line “De gustibus…”. No matter what, each of us has their own personal tastes and preferences.

For myself, I do not like Sea Cucumber!

Tillman

 

[Wesseling Audio Lab]

"Klippel measurements are considered by most members of this forum to be only scientific validation of a speaker systems. Any other of type assessments or critics are considered subjective opinions, this is a mistake and misleading."

"this is a mistake and misleading." - Totally Correct!

"why wouldn’t we use it?" Use it because it makes measuring faster and more convenient, but not more accurate!

 

[Theta]

The Klippel NFS is the most comprehensive and accurate measurement system currently extant, why wouldn’t we use it?
Keith

Use it of course if you are a speaker manufacturer. As for audiophiles, if measurement are not taken in the user's room, they are useless. Also If Erin as an example give great and accurate measurements to commercial mid size speaker, the punters on this site get the impression that their speakers are more accurate and better then big room filling multi-cabinet systems. They are convinced that their little speakers are state of the art and that Wilsons, Magico, ect. are just mega dollar rip offs. Klippel this:

 

[NTK]

Klippel this:

Why not? Magico even made a promotional video of their Klippel NFS measurement of their M9.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Use it of course if you are a speaker manufacturer. As for audiophiles, if measurement are not taken in the user's room, they are useless

The whole idea of Klippel is to derive measurements that are NOT characteristics of the room.

Everyone in this hobby knows that the room has an effect on the sound, and that different rooms cause different effects. But until Klippel came along, there was no way to get a clear picture of the inherent bass characteristics without either a large (read: very expensive) anechoic chamber or a crane boom and lots of space .... including good weather and no wind.

So Klippel changed all that; they made accurate, full-frequency measurements easier to obtain. Klippel measurements give you the native characteristics of the speaker. You need to learn how to deal with those in YOUR room as the next step.

That doesn't make Klippel useless. It's like buying microphones to record. Yes, you need measurements of the mics, but you also need to go one step further and understand how to place them on-location or in a studio. That's on you.

More knowledge generally means more work. That doesn't mean that more knowledge is bad.

Jim

 

[Purité Audio]

Use it of course if you are a speaker manufacturer. As for audiophiles, if measurement are not taken in the user's room, they are useless. Also If Erin as an example give great and accurate measurements to commercial mid size speaker, the punters on this site get the impression that their speakers are more accurate and better then big room filling multi-cabinet systems. They are convinced that their little speakers are state of the art and that Wilsons, Magico, ect. are just mega dollar rip offs. Klippel this:

You realise that is completely wrong, right?
Keith