Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[trioderob]

You Sir couldn’t be more mistaken. A well measuring and performant speaker design will have the greatest chance of transferring that stellar performance to your listeneing environment. You seem to incorrectly assume that the standard suite of Measurements and tests performed on Loud Speakers to only be useful as a graph or chart. What we test and measure are real physical audio performance data points. These data points have been developed and refined over decades and decades of rigorous detailed engineering design works and studies. Sir, no offense but you clearly have no clue what Engineers do and your reductive reasoning demonstrates your complete lack of comprehension of the work involved. Another words you don’t know what you don’t know.

You go to see your doctor because you are not feeling well. The Doctor draws blood and orders some additional diagnostic testing. At the conclusion of this testing he is informed by the test results that you have a tummy ache. He prescribes anti acid and a modified diet. All based on the test results. Or would you rather he just go with his gut instinct and start operating on you to remove your spleen?

If you have come here to just Troll our Engineering Focused community then the gig is up. Either start learning about real Audio Science and engage this community in a constructive and productive way or find the door on your own and save us from having to do the this work for you as well.

my basic question was poo-pooed and glossed over

I will repeat it ....... I go to an audio show and hear 130 speakers ..... 3 are huge standouts ...... one in particular

4 months after the show the speaker wins a Gold Award in the absolute sound magazine

if I had not gone to the show how would I have worked backwards with a handful of test charts to arrive at my speaker choice ????

 

[SIY]

if I had not gone to the show how would I have worked backwards with a handful of test chats to arrive at my speaker choice ????

By understanding what they mean, what the data are telling you, and how that relates to your own preferences. It may not get you a final answer, but it will narrow down the choices considerably.

 

[Purité Audio]

You have to learn how to understand a loudspeaker’s measurements correlate to their actual sound, allowing you to disregard the 127.
Keith
Beaten to it!

 

[trioderob]

You have to learn how to understand a loudspeaker’s measurements correlate to their actual sound, allowing you to disregard the 127.
Keith
Beaten to it!

just to be clear ,,,,,,, Purite is your company and these are the particular products you show and sell ...... true or falsehood ?

 

[Blumlein 88]

my basic question was poo-pooed and glossed over

I will repeat it ....... I go to an audio show and hear 130 speakers ..... 3 are huge standouts ...... one in particular

4 months after the show the speaker wins a Gold Award in the absolute sound magazine

if I had not gone to the show how would I have worked backwards with a handful of test charts to arrive at my speaker choice ????

So how do you effectively audition 130 speakers in what 3 days? 12 hours a day, many different rooms, different music, different loudness levels, time between and come up with solid results?

I get you might walk into a room and sound is bad, so move on. And you will hit a few that instantly sound fantastic so you spend more time there. Still that approach has many issues. Like impressive sound that wears thin once you own it for longer periods. Plus the influence of seeing the gear and the cost and taking in the stories behind the product.

So how do you work from tests charts and arrive at your speaker choice? Learn what the charts tell you, how they apply and where they fall short. Narrow the choice down and hear them. You might arrive at a better choice this way. Would it be the same few from tripping thru a bustling audio show? I don't know, maybe/maybe not.

I've purchased speakers both ways. I suppose the most impressive case was when a friend got his hands on some Quad ESL-63s. Heard them that first day, fell in love with them, and purchased my own a few weeks later. Never regretted it and had them for a decade and a half. Certainly nothing wrong with that. That leaves out a few other speakers I heard and purchased. That turned out not to my liking long term due to various issues. And a few I purchased just like the Quads and was happy with for a time. But I take advantage of the better info now and it helps.

 

[Purité Audio]

just to be clear ,,,,,,, Purite is your company and these are the particular products you show and sell ...... true or falsehood ?

Yes that’s me, over the years I learnt that the better the loudspeaker’s measurements the more transparent the sound.
Keith

 

[trioderob]

I should not have said 130 ...... the point is still valid ...... nothing wrong with getting a speaker that measures great ....... but the idea of limiting yourself to just a tiny fraction who happen to be tested in a particular home lab does not seem right to me ........ but what do I know ? -I am just a character on the web

 

[Purité Audio]

Loudspeakers are transducers so the better the measurements the more true to the source, but ultimately you have to listen to them, at least if you understand the measurements you will be able to cut through the BS, ‘voiced by the guru after thousands of hours… ‘.
Keith

 

[trioderob]

Yes that’s me, over the years I learnt that the better the loudspeaker’s measurements the more transparent the sound.
Keith

and out of curiosity ..... which speaker product of yours do you feel is a standout from what your competitors are bringing out to the major audio shows ,,,,,, ?

 

[Purité Audio]

The 8Cs are the easiest to achieve really good sound in a traditional domestic room, there are many fine measuring and sounding loudspeakers but they all have one thing in common and that is really fine measurements.
Keith

 

[BDWoody]

I should not have said 130 ...... the point is still valid ...... nothing wrong with getting a speaker that measures great ....... but the idea of limiting yourself to just a tiny fraction who happen to be tested in a particular home lab does not seem right to me ........ but what do I know ? -I am just a character on the web

Do you have any idea how to interpret the speaker data generated by this particular 'home lab?'

That might help it seem more right. Can you see being able to dismiss some choices based on a horrible test result? One with absolutely nutty FR, resonances everywhere and high distortion across the listening range? If so, narrowing down is a good thing, right?

Are any test results informative to you for any gear?

 

[trioderob]

The 8Cs are the easiest to achieve really good sound in a traditional domestic room, there are many fine measuring and sounding loudspeakers but they all have one thing in common and that is really fine measurements.
Keith

what if I told you I could do better at the 15,000 price point then those studio mini monitors for home audio ?

 

[SIY]

what if I told you I could do better at the 15,000 price point then those studio mini monitors for home audio ?

Then do it. And let's see controlled listening tests to prove it or high quality measurements.

 

[trioderob]

Then do it. And let's see controlled listening tests to prove it or high quality measurements.

give me details on all the rules and regulations that you would require in regards to the listening tests

 

[Blumlein 88]

I should not have said 130 ...... the point is still valid ...... nothing wrong with getting a speaker that measures great ....... but the idea of limiting yourself to just a tiny fraction who happen to be tested in a particular home lab does not seem right to me ........ but what do I know ? -I am just a character on the web

I'll be blunt in an effort to get through. And please note the bluntness is a sign of respect. That you are worthy of getting an answer.

"but what do I know ?" Answer, not as much as you could.

These tests here aren't exactly a fraction tested in a home lab. You are disparaging useful results and the information from them. The Klippel is probably the best instrument to measure speakers. Better than most anechoic chambers. It costs about $100k, so not like some chintzy home lab bit of gear.

The results are analyzed in a way that makes them useful. Much of that knowledge from work done by Toole et al at Harman and previously the NRC. It is not perfect, but is a big improvement over what was known and used in the past. Toole's book is a good place to start. This method of measurement and how it relates to loudspeaker performance has literally become an international standard. The Spin-o-rama.

Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers (ANSI/CTA-2034-A R-2020)

This Standard describes how to determine the frequency response, directivity and maximum output capability of a residential loudspeaker.

shop.cta.tech

Objective Loudspeaker Measurements to Predict Subjective Preferences?

Accurately measuring loudspeaker performance is a universal problem among most loudspeaker manufacturers and review publications. Dr. Floyd Toole discusses the science of measuring loudspeakers.

www.audioholics.com

Too many speakers don't have any good measurements. It would be highly helpful if all speakers had the spinorama data. You are correct only a small fraction have that which is unfortunate, but things are moving that way. Measurements done by soundstage.net and Stereophile are pretty helpful too.

Recommendations for loudspeakers by subjective reviewers is less of a crap shoot than is the case for electronics. But a good standard of measurement is more useful if it were the norm. If nothing else it knocks out real problematic issues. Some speakers can have those and it takes heroic efforts to get great sound from them. Some are so bad you are wasting your time. Speakers with good spin charts are easy to get good to great sound out of them.

And there will always be outlier preferences. No one should have to give that up, but for the majority that is not what is wanted. Plus with fairly linear good performing speakers most outlier preferences can be accommodated with DSP. Better sound quality at lower cost with more options. What is not to like?

 

[AdamG]

give me details on all the rules and regulations that you would require in regards to the listening tests

If you really want to learn what the measurements mean and how to interpret them you can access our Learning Library of Instructional Videos developed by our host and founder @amirm .

Master List of Instructional Teaching Video presentations (How to read and interpret/understand all the Graphs and Charts!

Collection of Amir’s instructional Videos for reference, refresher and new members: (“Behind the Curtain @ ASR University”) Welcome New and returning Members of ASR. Our Host Amir has put together a collection of comprehensive instructional videos that might help new and returning Members...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SIY]

give me details on all the rules and regulations that you would require in regards to the listening tests

Double blind, matched levels. Very basic controls.

 

[trioderob]

Double blind, matched levels. Very basic controls.

so if I understand what you are saying I would have to have a pair of the 8c speakers ....... and a pair of my " mystery" speakers
I then would need a control group to do double blind tests ....... how big would the control group need to be ?

 

[GXAlan]

Double blind, matched levels. Very basic controls.

How do you like to match levels? Pink noise? White noise? band limited pink noise? Sine tone?

If you have two speakers with different FR or FR range, you may not be able to match it. Using something as simple as a flat speaker vs smiley face EQ’d speaker, do you have the midrange neutral but the the treble and bass seem heightened, or average SPL with noise where you will feel the midrange is lacking?

I think you can still have science and blind switching but allow the listener to adjust volume…. What if one speaker handles higher SPLs well but the initial volume is within the performance threshold of both?

 

[SIY]

so if I understand what you are saying I would have to have a pair of the 8c speakers ....... and a pair of my " mystery" speakers
I then would need a control group to do double blind tests ....... how big would the control group need to be ?

Depends on what you're specifically trying to claim with your boast (your claim was quite vague). Be specific, and designing the experiment becomes much easier.