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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

what is the most transparent loudspeaker transducer one can purchase in these 3 price points ?

1) $ 1000
2) $ 10,000
3) $ 100000
In terms of traditional passives , Magico’s actually measure pretty well, KEF Blades probably are even better and there is a US brand that sell direct they have a Klippel NFS someone here will know whom I mean.
There would be measurement led designs.
Contemporary actives are better still of course.
Keith
 
what is the most transparent loudspeaker transducer one can purchase in these 3 price points ?

1) $ 1000
2) $ 10,000
3) $ 100000

The only thing to add is that at the 1k price point, compromises need to be made. Do you want 20 Hz to 20 kHz with some irregularity? Or 80 Hz to 20 kHz with an ultra transparent midrange?

This is where it is fair to say there are measurements alone may not tell the story. The preference score is highly weighted towards bass, because all music/all genres, people tend to prefer more bass.

But what if you just like acapella? Or violins? Would YOU rather prioritize voices over full range? What if you loved taiko drums?

Measurements don’t change these opinions. There are also psychoacoustics, like the LS3/5a lifting the perceived height of the phantom center.
 
The most important criteria for recorded music is the Music and performance of the music, then it is dynamic range, clarity and realism of the recording ( mic placement, number and room acoustics, etc.), then the speakers frequency response, the range itself, directivity and more, and finally compensating for the rooms alteration of the speakers inherent properties to render the recordings realism. Good electronics are easy to find.
 
except Harbeth)
Out of curiosity, why?

Speaking as someone who owns and enjoys both Harbeth SLH5+AE and Revel F228be..and a pair of Genelec 8010s with sub (although the latter requires you be very close.
 
there is a US brand that sell direct they have a Klippel NFS
Don’t know why we don’t name them (but maybe why you don’t), that’s Ascend, isn’t it?
 
Out of curiosity, why?
Why is it that I have heard of Harbeth but not of Graham, Rosso, Raidho, Devore, Audio Note, Trenner & Friedl, Diapason? I have no idea? Think of something you are not aware of and explain how come you aren't aware of it. That's tough to answer.

Why, otoh, have I heard of Harbeth. Again Idk. It might have been on ASR. I really don't recall. I'm old. Ask me something easier, like, maybe, in which sense of the word "better" is mono is better than stereo.

To be clear I have heard none of these speakers. If I have ever expressed an opionion about the utility or value they offer, please provide references.
 
Why is it that I have heard of them and not of Graham, Rosso, Raidho, Devore, Audio Note, Trenner & Friedl, Diapason? I have no idea? Think of something you are not aware of and explain how come you aren't aware of it. That's tough to answer.

Why, otoh, have I heard of Harbeth. Again Idk. It might have been on ASR. I really don't recall. I'm old. Ask me something easier, like, maybe, in which sense of the word "better" is mono is better than stereo.
Sorry, I misunderstood- I thought you wanted to test all the models except Harbeth for some unstated reason, as opposed to stating that you hadn’t heard of all the others. Carry on.
 
....... it reminds me of a guy I knew who was into expensive digital cameras - he told me that he cared much more about how the sensor measured under laboratory conditions involving test charts and that the art of photography was extremely in second place !

So, he wasn't a photographer/artist himself, he was just a collector? Do you believe that looking at the art (photographs) produced by whatever artists actually using whatever specific camera would give him a better idea of what he should expect if he bought and used it?

How well do you understand the various test results?

that worked on me till I went JAPANESE and bought a Altec 19 / 300B TRIODE / Cat preamp setup in 1994 ...

I'm sure you've made a few salesmen very happy.

its also dawned on me that you guys might all be professional sound Engineers working in professional settings who have a completely different criteria then audiophiles - is that a true statement or no ?

Not a lot of them around. They tend to have the same misconceptions as the run of the mill audiophile. Here we try to use actual evidence to inform decisions, as opposed to random, unsupported anecdote.

We do happen to have quite a few engineers of the academically credentialed STEM variety (as opposed to a 'recording engineer' for example) who understand the design and circuitry of the electronics at the level where the physics equations exist. Come to think of it, we have a at least one Physics professor, although I don't think his PhD is in physics, but I digress.

My daily drivers are JBL708Ps, that I bought based on reviews before hearing. I could have returned them if I didn't like them, but they have exceeded expectations and make me smile every day. There are plenty out there who enjoy the shopping/test driving part, I suppose...but I'm not one of them, so being able to narrow down my choices in this way has likely led me to a better system than I might have just randomly stumbled into without the detailed data.
 
It's funny, isn't it. I was
its also dawned on me that you guys might all be professional sound Engineers
possibly. i've been here 5 years and couldn't tell ya. i have a vague idea what 3 or 4 people here have/had as careers.

working in professional settings
not me.

who have a completely different criteria then audiophiles
what "completely different criteria" do you have in mind?

what are audiophile criteria? i mean, can you characterize audiophile criteria? how do they differ from the criteria of "professional sound Engineers working in professional settings"? to be honest i don't easily believe this can explain your objections to ASR but if you can try to elaborate the difference between the needs/desires/preferences/criteria of the audio pro and the audiophile, I would be very pleased to read it.
 
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Review Index (upper left) > click Speakers in header > Click price column header to sort > read all + or - at price points > make list > go listen


Genelec 8361A ...... I could live with those as my speakers and he seems to love them ..... I use co-axial powered studio monitors in my living room right now​

 
I have been hit with a lot of eloquent words here but at some point reality sets in ..... I am making the assumption that actually enjoying music is at least as import to you and the other members as looking at test charts ? ....... it reminds me of a guy I knew who was into expensive digital cameras - he told me that he cared much more about how the sensor measured under laboratory conditions involving test charts and that the art of photography was extremely in second place !

So for example if you have a ten thousand dollar budget for a pair of speakers what are you going to do ? ........ will you read a test report on line or will you actually physically go somewhere to hear them ?

imho and near 40 years in this hobby that would be absolute insanity if you bought off a test chart

that's the silliness that the Canadian companies sold to the public in the 90s as justification to use cheap drivers - remember all that "national anechoic chamber " mumbo jumbo
- that worked on me till I went JAPANESE and bought a Altec 19 / 300B TRIODE / Cat preamp setup in 1994 ...

its also dawned on me that you guys might all be professional sound Engineers working in professional settings who have a completely different criteria then audiophiles - is that a true statement or no ?
A frequently constructed straw man around here. The idea since you understand, can make use of and value measurements that you don't enjoy music or that music is of lesser importance. When in fact if you can make use of the information many "difficult audiophile decisions" become much simpler, It is much easier and often cheaper to put together a high performance sound system, leaving more time and money to simply enjoy music without the audiophile nervosa.

I have in fact purchased some speakers that while less than $10 k were not cheap sight unseen, sound unheard based upon how it was made, designed and measured. Very happy with that result till this day. And I have experience of many speakers so it wasn't a matter of no perspective.

I've heard a few systems with SET's, never heard one that wasn't obviously colored by the amp. They can still be fun to listen to, but a very definite preference in sound away from fidelity. I prefer push pull triodes for that sort of thing. A bit of character and not so grossly colored. After many years of various flavors of sound (often quite enjoyable) I've come around to the idea accurate speakers work in more places and on more music. One these days has the option to tart it up a bit with DSP if that is what you are looking to do.

Now many will say DSP just does not do it, but I believe much of that comes down to the effect of seeing what you are using. Your perception might be enhanced by having the real gear to use and interact with. That is valid if it makes things more fun. What is not valid is claiming some magical factor that is not covered by the measurements. Old hat knowledge around here anyway.
 
what is the most transparent loudspeaker transducer one can purchase in these 3 price points ?

1) $ 1000
2) $ 10,000
3) $ 100000
According to Harman it will often be #1. Not always, but often enough it surprised them when tested. A most common mistake in home audio is the belief more expensive equates with better. It should, but especially in high end may not even be true 50% of the time.
 
I've heard a few systems with SET's, never heard one that wasn't obviously colored by the amp. They can still be fun to listen to, but a very definite preference in sound away from fidelity. I prefer push pull triodes for that sort of thing. A bit of character and not so grossly colored. After many years of various flavors of sound (often quite enjoyable) I've come around to the idea accurate speakers work in more places and on more music. One these days has the option to tart it up a bit with DSP if that is what you are looking to do.

"grossly colored " ??? ...... it all depends on what speaker is hooked up to the SET amp ....... the biggest mistake one can make in this hobby is to over generalize ..... you are talking to someone who been in the hobby for 40 years and has heard everything from lush Quiksilver amps ....... to large 845 triodes ,,,,,,,,,,,, to Atmosphere OLT amps ...... to the best of the solid state class A amps ...... to digital amps ......... to the chip amps from 47 labs .................I love it when someone who saw a test chart somewhere on the internet wants to school me about this stuff ........ I had my first 300b SET amp in 95 ...... you ?
 
imho and near 40 years in this hobby that would be absolute insanity if you bought off a test chart
You Sir couldn’t be more mistaken. A well measuring and performant speaker design will have the greatest chance of transferring that stellar performance to your listeneing environment. You seem to incorrectly assume that the standard suite of Measurements and tests performed on Loud Speakers to only be useful as a graph or chart. What we test and measure are real physical audio performance data points. These data points have been developed and refined over decades and decades of rigorous detailed engineering design works and studies. Sir, no offense but you clearly have no clue what Engineers do and your reductive reasoning demonstrates your complete lack of comprehension of the work involved. Another words you don’t know what you don’t know.

You go to see your doctor because you are not feeling well. The Doctor draws blood and orders some additional diagnostic testing. At the conclusion of this testing he is informed by the test results that you have a tummy ache. He prescribes anti acid and a modified diet. All based on the test results. Or would you rather he just go with his gut instinct and start operating on you to remove your spleen?

If you have come here to just Troll our Engineering Focused community then the gig is up. Either start learning about real Audio Science and engage this community in a constructive and productive way or find the door on your own and save us from having to do the this work for you as well. :mad:
 
"grossly colored " ??? ...... it all depends on what speaker is hooked up to the SET amp ....... the biggest mistake one can make in this hobby is to over generalize ..... you are talking to someone who been in the hobby for 40 years and has heard everything from lush Quiksilver amps ....... to large 845 triodes ,,,,,,,,,,,, to Atmosphere OLT amps ...... to the best of the solid state class A amps ...... to digital amps ......... to the chip amps from 47 labs .................I love it when someone who saw a test chart somewhere on the internet wants to school me about this stuff ........ I had my first 300b SET amp in 95 ...... you ?
The only speaker which will not cause gross coloration with an SET is one with a perfectly flat impedance curve. Otherwise, yes, grossly colored. And even then, microphonics and high distortion, with quite a bit of compression artifact. You can like that, but it's coloration, and the sort that can't be turned off.
 
"grossly colored " ??? ...... it all depends on what speaker is hooked up to the SET amp ....... the biggest mistake one can make in this hobby is to over generalize ..... you are talking to someone who been in the hobby for 40 years and has heard everything from lush Quiksilver amps ....... to large 845 triodes ,,,,,,,,,,,, to Atmosphere OLT amps ...... to the best of the solid state class A amps ...... to digital amps ......... to the chip amps from 47 .................I love it when someone who saw a test chart somewhere on the internet wants to school me about this stuff
Maybe less straw manning would help. I've been in the hobby over 40 years myself. I've heard some version of everything in your post. My comments don't come from "seeing some test chart somewhere on the internet". Quicksilver amps are lush. OTL amps can be pretty poor on wrong load. While I cannot claim to have heard every SET, never heard one that wasn't obviously coloring the sound. Maybe they've not been hooked up to the right speaker, but I have heard them on some very efficient speakers. If they sound relatively uncolored, it will require extremely careful pairing and I know of nothing they bring to the sound other topologies cannot match or exceed.

With SETs you typically have very low output, high distortion, and high output impedance matched with weakness at the frequency extremes. If you manage to match a loudspeaker to ameliorate all these issues it could be matched by a nice low powered SS amp and some EQ. EQ since the speaker likely has to have uneven response to fix what is wrong with the SET.
 
..the biggest mistake one can make in this hobby is to over generalize .....

:rolleyes:

you are talking to someone who been in the hobby for 40 years and has heard everything from lush Quiksilver amps ....... to large 845 triodes ,,,,,,,,,,,, to Atmosphere OLT amps ...... to the best of the solid state class A amps ...... to digital amps ......... to the chip amps from 47 labs

So you've spent a lot of money, over a long period of time. Many equate that with credibility, but not here.

.................I love it when someone who saw a test chart somewhere on the internet wants to school me about this stuff ........

Are you beyond learning from people who know more than you do?

Try your listening tests with a few meaningful controls.
 
The only speaker which will not cause gross coloration with an SET is one with a perfectly flat impedance curve. Otherwise, yes, grossly colored. And even then, microphonics and high distortion, with quite a bit of compression artifact. You can like that, but it's coloration, and the sort that can't be turned off.
Yes. I've heard a couple SETs paired with some Maggies as an experiment because they have the nearly flat purely resistive impedance curve. Even playing them at low levels as the 4 ohm load and power requirements of the Maggies are not really suitable they had a sound. Microphonics yes, high distortion yes, and I'm glad you mentioned compression as that is common with them too. My friends and I have also used them as a low gain preamp (the voltages of most of them are not really out of that range) feeding a suitable amp. They are still colored enough you have no doubt when they are in or out of the circuit. Even with various horns or other high efficiency speakers they are supposed to be good with they still add their own coloration from what I've heard.
 
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