Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Multicore]

That said, what I personal discover during this months of auditions is that the vast majority of the “Sancta Sanctorum” companies that people recommend in this forum are not really satisfaying to my ears. In this months I could hear: Kef, JBL, Genelec, Neumann, Revel, Dutch & Dutch, Kii and, even with their obvious differences, to me they sound as monitors in a not really friendly or pleasant way, in opposition to what I desire for my living-room if I pretend to just enjoy the music in long sessions without fatigue and without analytical pretensions. As you can imagine, in this months I could also hear other companies, many of them demonized because of their bad measurements: BBC sound (Harbeth, Graham…), Rosso, Raidho, Devore, Audio Note, Trenner & Friedl, Diapason… and to my ears they sound friendly and for moments magical. Any explanation?? I ´m stupid? I don ´t have taste/ears and I should better think to spend my money/time in other hobby??

Not stupid, if your well-organized original post is representative.

I'd be very interested to have you as a subject for listening preference experiments. I think it should be possible to isolate what makes the difference you suggested in the above paragraph.

One thing I have personally noticed is that well-engineered speakers, i.e. conforming to the performance goals that appear to be common across the brands often preferred here at ASR, is that they are intrinsically uninteresting. So long as the program material and listening SPL fits the speaker's specs, they sound much the same as each other. That's because the engineering design objectives for acoustic performance of speakers is slowly converging. I wonder if that's related to your experience. If you're looking for speakers to improve the sound, they may disappoint because they don't try to do that.

I wonder if we could hypothetically with blind tests establish what you like about the brands I've never heard of (I heard of Harbeth, the others are new to me) in the quoted paragraph and do the same with a neutral speaker and EQ so that you can't hear the difference. I suspect that's the case but we can't be sure since radiation patterns and room effects complicate things. Let's say for the sake of argument that's the case, it suggests there exists another EQ spec you'd like even more than the sound of the best euphonic speaker you have so far auditioned.

---

I'll add one last thing. It can take a long time to shift a paradigm. Darwin's Origin was 1859. Mendel's genes didn't take until ~1900. Molecular genetics kicked in around mid century. The concept of gene in Dawkins' Selfish (1976) is obsolete. Some things are complicated and difficult to understand and take time.

 

[jae]

Like an amplifiers THD+N measurement will tell you nothing at all if you haven't tested yourself and know what your personal threshold for distortion and noise is. But if you have done the tests and know your thresholds a test will tell you what you need to know.

Well, even that is not even necessary since any recommended amplification device should be transparent, all sound the same, and distortions should be outside of human hearing threshold at normal loads/listening volumes anyway (assuming it is not broken).

 

[Jim Taylor]

@trioderob

Audio equipment, like many other things in life, can be judged by either Function or Preference.

There are many forums on the Web that deal with Preference. As our esteemed member @j_j has noted, there is no gainsaying preference. However, the majority of members in this particular forum are more interested in Function ... and that particular Function relates to the accurate reproduction of information contained in a recording.

After the requirements of Function have been satisfied, then members here may express Preference. Then again, perhaps they won't. Preference relates, after all, to only one person. In the larger picture, it is something very trivial.

Enjoy your preferences ... but please recognize that preferences - especially subjective preferences - are not the main interest of most members here. If that disappoints you, you can be sure that there are many audio sites on the Web that are primarily interested in Preference. It's not like they're threatened with extinction.

Please enjoy your time here.

Jim

 

[Timcognito]

I am all for accurate speakers ...... but it wont tell you if you like the sound to near the degree as actually listing .... for example what are 3 of your favorite speakers you have ever heard ?

I will go first :

1) MBL
2) GERMAN PHYISKS
3) Lansche Plasma

I have heard all three in person and like them the best out of approx 500 high end systems I have heard
explain to me how I could have worked backwards and arrived at this list by reviewing hundreds of test charts ?

It's now clear to everyone that your ears are the gold standard. Maybe start another forum where you listen and tell others how good speakers sound, That would be novel.

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[trioderob]

@trioderob

Audio equipment, like many other things in life, can be judged by either Function or Preference.

There are many forums on the Web that deal with Preference. As our esteemed member @j_j has noted, there is no gainsaying preference. However, the majority of members in this particular forum are more interested in Function ... and that particular Function relates to the accurate reproduction of information contained in a recording.

After the requirements of Function have been satisfied, then members here may express Preference. Then again, perhaps they won't. Preference relates, after all, to only one person. In the larger picture, it is something very trivial.

Enjoy your preferences ... but please recognize that preferences - especially subjective preferences - are not the main interest of most members here. If that disappoints you, you can be sure that there are many audio sites on the Web that are primarily interested in Preference. It's not like they're threatened with extinction.

Please enjoy your time here.

Jim

I guess that I got confused - this is more of a speaker builder "lab testing " web page where Engineers and Diy folks talk about testing methodology and results.

 

[Koeitje]

no they just make products that are wonderful to listen to ..... I was at a demo where they actually physically brought in a talented Cello player into the room so you could go back and forth between hearing him recorded and hearing him live - it was astounding

please post 3 speakers that you like ...... your turn now

I was just stating that a double blind test would be nice. I understand not everyone is looking for high fidelity audio reproduction, but I am.

And speakers? KEF Blade One Meta, KEF Blade Two Meta and the KEF Reference 5 Meta.

 

[trioderob]

I was just stating that a double blind test would be nice. I understand not everyone is looking for high fidelity audio reproduction, but I am.

And speakers? KEF Blade One Meta, KEF Blade Two Meta and the KEF Reference 5 Meta.

I have heard those at a local Best Buy electronics store - hooked up to the Mc Intosh equipment - in the Magnolia room - they were not my cup of tea at the 25 grand price point - I assume they measure well ?

they are also a nasty 2 ohm load ..... better have the right electronics

can you give me 2 other brands you like ?

 

[Multicore]

I guess that I got confused - this is more of a speaker builder "lab testing " web page where Engineers and Diy folks talk about testing methodology and results.

Please feel free to spend some time reading the hot threads, perennials, and browse around the forums. You should be able to form an accurate picture.

please post 3 speakers that you like ...... your turn now

I like the two in the living room and the two in the study, so I'm one over budget. Who cares what I like? What difference does it make? The only way that can be interesting in and of itself is to learn about a product I've not heard of before. It's like the "What are you listening to?" thread or the "What beer do you like?" thread.

These conversations become much more interesting when we try to connect the preference to the object.

It's the same with speakers: what's interesting is the relationship between the subjective differences between certain speakers and the objective differences between same. If you want to talk about that, I'm all ears (pun! good one, huh? that means i'm witty).

 

[Multicore]

I have heard those ... they were not my cup of tea at the 25 grand price point

Reminds me of OP's post.

What do y'all think of my proposition (above) that well-engineered speakers don't sound distinctive, therefore lack intrinsic interest, therefore not any kind of cup of tea. Their job is to get out of the picture altogether so those that succeed sound like ... nothing.

 

[Koeitje]

I have heard those at a local Best Buy electronics store - hooked up to the Mc Intosh equipment - in the Magnolia room - they were not my cup of tea at the 25 grand price point - I assume they measure well ?

they are also a nasty 2 ohm load ..... better have the right electronics

can you give me 2 other brands you like ?

2 Ohm loads are no issue for modern amplifier designs.

Not going to bother justifying the rest of your post with a response. You are clearly just baiting.

 

[Timcognito]

I guess that I got confused - this is more of a speaker builder "lab testing " web page where Engineers and Diy folks talk about testing methodology and results.

Your confusion comes from the fact that standards are close to universal and has to do with the signal in matching the signal out and has been correlated to controlled listening tests. If one wants to deviate from those that's up to them and the final judge is of course listening in the the environment that they operate, your room. To project your sense of how good a speaker is based on your subjective evaluation at some trade show is not what ASR is about, even if you chose to augment it with DSP later.

 

[AdamG]

Another 2 page thread moved in. At this rate we are going to need to expand the size of this library. You guys have fun now. Please no sharp objects while you verbally joust! I prefer Bluntness…

Thank to @Rednaxela for suggesting the merge and helping us keep the place tidy.

 

[Timcognito]

Your confusion comes from the fact that standards are close to universal and has to do with the signal in matching the signal out and has been correlated to controlled listening tests. If one wants to deviate from those that's up to them and the final judge is of course listening in the the environment that they operate, your room. To project your sense of how good a speaker is based on your subjective evaluation at some trade show is not what ASR is about, even if you chose to augment it with DSP later.

Yes bluntness is good especially the to newcomers here. So I replied to my own thread and will speak to the subjective side of the coin. I am willing to bet that many reviewers and dealers who have been listening to a large number of well made speakers in the same environment have tuned their ears to hearing the nuances of each and can generally tell the very good from the run of the mill. Separating the good from the very good is more difficult by hearing. So even those without a Klippel scanner can have good sense of performance. But those who test have the ability to hone in on the typical successes, mistakes and idiosyncrasies, of different speaker designs, tech and sizes and verify the measured performance against what they hear. Further I think one very important question is, are they somehow getting compensated by those producing the product for those published results? I think Amir is among the very few that can give measured and subjective evaluation of a device with the experience of have done quite a few, with funds coming from donors and his own pocket. If a manufacturer submits a product he makes that clear. So these are very good reason to seek out his reviews objective or subjective here at ASR.

 

[krabapple]

I guess that I got confused - this is more of a speaker builder "lab testing " web page where Engineers and Diy folks talk about testing methodology and results.

Well, no, not just that.
But what is true on this 'web page' is that many of us, hopefully most at this point, are aware of the pitfalls of sighted comparison, and its influence on things like...speaker preference, for instance. And then there's the differences in room acoustics....

So, your nagging people to tell you what speakers they have, is pointless. Nothing is 'proved' in any case.
If you want proof that your, or anyone's, speaker preference is based completely and only on their sound, that takes a lot more work to generate.
'I auditioned those great measuring speakers and didn't like their sound best at Best Buy' doesn't rate on a web *site* devoted to audio science.

But, but, you counter, that's pretty much to only way a normal person can compare speaker sound!
Yeah, it is.
Too bad for us.
So instead of adamant assertions from sighted listening, how about tempering them with this in mind?

 

[trioderob]

Your confusion comes from the fact that standards are close to universal and has to do with the signal in matching the signal out and has been correlated to controlled listening tests. If one wants to deviate from those that's up to them and the final judge is of course listening in the the environment that they operate, your room. To project your sense of how good a speaker is based on your subjective evaluation at some trade show is not what ASR is about, even if you chose to augment it with DSP later.

I have been hit with a lot of eloquent words here but at some point reality sets in ..... I am making the assumption that actually enjoying music is at least as import to you and the other members as looking at test charts ? ....... it reminds me of a guy I knew who was into expensive digital cameras - he told me that he cared much more about how the sensor measured under laboratory conditions involving test charts and that the art of photography was extremely in second place !

So for example if you have a ten thousand dollar budget for a pair of speakers what are you going to do ? ........ will you read a test report on line or will you actually physically go somewhere to hear them ?

imho and near 40 years in this hobby that would be absolute insanity if you bought off a test chart

that's the silliness that the Canadian companies sold to the public in the 90s as justification to use cheap drivers - remember all that "national anechoic chamber " mumbo jumbo
- that worked on me till I went JAPANESE and bought a Altec 19 / 300B TRIODE / Cat preamp setup in 1994 ...

its also dawned on me that you guys might all be professional sound Engineers working in professional settings who have a completely different criteria then audiophiles - is that a true statement or no ?

 

[Purité Audio]

Loudspeakers are transducers, many here prefer to have transparent designs, to simply hear what is on the record.
Keith

 

[trioderob]

Loudspeakers are transducers, many here prefer to have transparent designs, to simply hear what is on the record.
Keith

what is the most transparent loudspeaker transducer one can purchase in these 3 price points ?

1) $ 1000
2) $ 10,000
3) $ 100000

 

[Timcognito]

So for example if you have a ten thousand dollar budget for a pair of speakers what are you going to do ? ........ will you read a test report on line or will you actually physically go somewhere to hear them ?

If they tested poorly I would not. If they tested good I would and would go and listen to others that tested good. It's not ether or. If they had no test data I would not trust my ears alone at my age. The exception comes from speakers that are difficult to test like in-wall or omni-directional then your ears will have to do. The $100K Klippel scanner that ASR uses is the gold standard used by speaker designers all over the world and lets one do an apples to apples comparison. Unless you bring them all into your room you can never get a good listen,volume match and comparison. Price is not predictor of sound quality by the way. As you say at $10k or any price a listen is requirement for any audio quality speakers.

 

[Timcognito]

what is the most transparent loudspeaker transducer one can purchase in these 3 price points ?

Review Index (upper left) > click Speakers in header > Click price column header to sort > read all + or - at price points > make list > go listen

 

[Purité Audio]

what is the most transparent loudspeaker transducer one can purchase in these 3 price points ?

1) $ 1000
2) $ 10,000
3) $ 100000

In terms of traditional passives , Magico’s actually measure pretty well, KEF Blades probably are even better and there is a US brand that sell direct they have a Klippel NFS someone here will know whom I mean.
There would be measurement led designs.
Contemporary actives are better still of course.
Keith