Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Spyerx]

If it sounds good to you, it’s good. As shared, speakers are very much a preference.

I for one love the supposedly inaccurate and resonating cabinets of Harbeth. I never fatigue listening to them. I also love the tone controls on my amps.

 

[Timcognito]

scientific testing means nothing when it comes to speakers except that if something is really wrong in the test the speaker might have a real problem - but on the reverse just because it gets good test results does not mean you will like it

Testing however does show if it is accurate and once it is accurate then the room will rob or color its accurate sound. Then it is time for room correction. And it is time for you to read the texts, books and papers of Floyd Toole, Sean Olive and others that have shown in exhaustive blind tests that accurate speakers are preferred my most critical listeners. I will not argue against having something you like but it may not sound like instruments, voices or venue in which it was recorded if you were present at that time.

 

[DMill]

My observation is that most people develop a preference for a speaker they consider great over time. For example B&W makes some incredible speakers on many levels, however many are not flat in frequency response. I personally owned a pair for 15 years and to my ears they sounded “more revealing” than others. Since then I’ve moved on to speakers with a flatter response. I recently hooked up the old B&Ws before giving them to my daughter and they now sound very bright to me. Almost annoyingly sucked out in midrange and high in treble. The measurements from Stereophile proved out what I’m currently hearing after listening to a more neutral speakers for the last 10 years. This is certainly not to say frequency response is the only thing to consider in a speaker, but may give you a logical answer to your post.

And all that said, enjoy what YOU like. I can definitely say my old B&Ws still were pretty darned nice. I hope my daughter enjoys them.

 

[GXAlan]

scientific testing means nothing when it comes to speakers except that if something is really wrong in the test the speaker might have a real problem - but on the reverse just because it gets good test results does not mean you will like it

accurate speakers are preferred my most critical listeners. I will not argue against having something you like but it may not sound like instruments, voices or venue in which it was recorded if you were present at that time.

Science and preference are two completely different things. The first is a structured way to ask and answer questions. The second is what you like.

We know that accurate speakers are liked by most but not all. No one will argue if your preference is different and the popularity of vinyl here is testament to the diverse preferences here.

What is still great about the science is that you can use it to help understand your preferences should you want to upgrade your existing setup that you are already happy with.

This gets to a paradox. If you love your existing non-neutral system, why bother reading more reviews? Shouldn’t you be at end game?

If you like but don’t love your existing non-neutral system, using science can help you figure out if your upgrade is more neutrality or more of _______.

Nothing ever replaces your ears, and blind testing can easily showcase differences between speakers. Even here, people will talk about differences between the Neumann and Genelec sound. BUT the science isn’t wrong. It’s your screening tool and ability to add rigor to your understanding.

 

[Timcognito]

Nothing ever replaces your ears, and blind testing can easily showcase differences between speakers. Even here, people will talk about differences between the Neumann and Genelec sound. BUT the science isn’t wrong. It’s your screening tool and ability to add rigor to your understanding.

Will not argue against what you said if you are the only listener, say with headphones. But a neutral or well measuring system will seem more real to most guests, or saxophone player listening to a cut with saxophone solo on your system. Colorations are just that and hope others like those as much as you.

 

[Somafunk]

and to my ears they sound friendly and for moments magical. Any explanation?? I ´m stupid? I don ´t have taste/ears and I should better think to spend my money/time in other hobby??

What you like is up to you - if you prefer a sound of one speaker over another then great .

For some “weird reason” I prefer listening to BBC 6 Music on my Audioengine A2 speakers, which are in the kitchen and 15ft away from where I sit in the living room.

I “could” listen to 6music on my Dynaudio set up in a treated room with additional PEQ at the press of a button but I don’t ………..am I stupid?, quite possibly but not for this reason

Buy what sounds good to yourself, but preferably with a return policy as what can initially sound very pleasing may become tiresome, such as speakers tuned with an additional treble rise to get your attention on the initial listening session

 

[GXAlan]

Will not argue against what you said if you are the only listener, say with headphones. But a neutral or well measuring system will seem more real to most guests, or saxophone player listening to a cut with saxophone solo on your system. Colorations are just that and hope others like those as much as you.

Agreed 100%.

The only thing I encourage die-hard preference score fans (and I am a fan, just not die hard) is to listen to a ultra wide dispersion speaker like the MBL, Bose 901, and B&O Balance.

The science has already said that frequency response irregularities are masked with stereo playback. So imagine how much your frequency response irregularities are masked by omnidirectional or polydirectional speakers?

Now the cool part is adding modern DSP.

I acknowledge that omnidirectionals are not ideal for solo saxophones or the stereotypical singer/songwriter with a guitar.

But for classical music, movie sound tracks, I prefer the sound of omnidirectional style speakers that sacrifice frequency response over unmixed playback on neutral speakers. But, of course, native multichannel playback on neutral speakers are the best.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Tests and measurements are not intended to show what's right, they are intended to show what's wrong. In other words, they are intended to weed out equipment that is inferior, performs poorly, does not perform to published spec, or has faults that may reduce longevity or affect safety.

What remains is a (hopefully) large field of choices from which you can confidently choose as you wish, to satisfy your heart's desire.

Jim

 

[terryforsythe]

Any hope?

This video by Amir will greatly help you:

 

[trioderob]

Testing however does show if it is accurate and once it is accurate then the room will rob or color its accurate sound. Then it is time for room correction. And it is time for you to read the texts, books and papers of Floyd Toole, Sean Olive and others that have shown in exhaustive blind tests that accurate speakers are preferred my most critical listeners. I will not argue against having something you like but it may not sound like instruments, voices or venue in which it was recorded if you were present at that time.

I am all for accurate speakers ...... but it wont tell you if you like the sound to near the degree as actually listing .... for example what are 3 of your favorite speakers you have ever heard ?

I will go first :

1) MBL
2) GERMAN PHYISKS
3) Lansche Plasma

I have heard all three in person and like them the best out of approx 500 high end systems I have heard
explain to me how I could have worked backwards and arrived at this list by reviewing hundreds of test charts ?

 

[terryforsythe]

Also, this video:

 

[GXAlan]

1) MBL
2) GERMAN PHYISKS
3) Lansche Plasma

…
explain to me how I could have worked backwards and arrived at this list by reviewing hundreds of test charts ?

You still have to listen, which no one is against, but seeing this list answers a lot.

1) You like Omni directional speakers. You can see this in the dispersion characteristics.

2) If you like the plasma tweeter, the assumption is that your high frequency hearing is pretty good.

——-
So now, here’s what the science would predict

1) B&O Balance, you would probably think it’s not bad for the money and size

LRS as a dipole isn’t bad, but you will see the high frequency beaming. You won’t like it as much, because the plasma tweeter is omnidirectional.

The KH420 won’t give you the spaciousness of the others, but you might Iike the drums and bass

2) You can then look at FR and the beosound isn’t bad.

So, the challenge is to find a pair of Beosound Balances and to see how you like them. This would be powerful use of science because if those are your top 3 speakers and spending <$3k for a pair of Beosound Balances gets you a lot of the same experience on a budget, it will have proven the strength of the science to help you find your speaker.

——-
There’s a third corollary. If you heard the KH420 or Revel Salon2 or a few “high performance direct radiating speakers” and you didn’t like them, you know that your preference is NOT for the neutral, slowly narrowing directivity model that the masses enjoy. That’s good, because it pushes you toward planars or omnidirectional designs to evaluate.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I am all for accurate speakers ...... but it wont tell you if you like the sound to near the degree as actually listing .... for example what are 3 of your favorite speakers you have ever heard ?

I will go first :

1) MBL
2) GERMAN PHYISKS
3) Lansche Plasma

I have heard all three in person and like them the best out of approx 500 high end systems I have heard
explain to me how I could have worked backwards and arrived at this list by reviewing hundreds of test charts ?

With pretty much everything other than speakers you can find out from the right measurements what you need to know.

Speaker measurements are not quite that good yet. They are closer than most people think to this, but there are still plenty of interactions with the room they are in, and personal preference and personal bias (I mean a big panel speaker or something like an MBL probably make it sound better than it otherwise would because it is so impressive looking). If we had the chance to blind audition speakers under consideration our sound preference does track measurements more closely for the majority of people.

Despite having heard many high end speakers (maybe not 500, but in the dozens) long enough to learn them well, I must say those with good measurements stand out. They can be made to sound pretty good in more rooms more easily than speakers with poor measurements. Another aspect is I've found favorite speakers have some stand out qualities that impress us. Owning them often leads to a period of working around their deficiencies highlighting their strengths. I think over time one also gets acclimated to their better and worse attributes. I find owning well measuring speakers while they might lack the two or three highly impressive characteristics they tend to be more even performers that sound very good all the way around and with less fuss in getting them setup to work in the room. Also you don't end up with certain music being played more often because it suits the speaker. All music suits well measuring speakers.

So would you have been able to reach your list of 3 favorite speakers if all speakers had klippel measurements to look at beforehand? I don't know. I see two of them are omni's more or less. I do know for a decade or so I've stuck with considering speakers I can find measurements for that measure well. It has been considerably easier than the old way of listening and finding something that hits the right spots for you. I would say if you had experience and measurements of your favorites, you might find others you haven't looked at which might suit you as well for less money or which were even better than your favorites narrowing down the list of those you haven't experienced using the measurements. The German Physiks looking at Stereophile measurements appear to be pretty well measuring for what it is worth. MBLs measure well in some ways there is the issue of whether or not an omni is a great approach. In my limited experience with omnis, the are one of those speakers that sound good with some types of recordings and not others. Then again I have spent most of my life listening to ESL panels which have their own foibles.

 

[trioderob]

Also, this video:

ends up the speaker I listen to music thru matches all your criteria to a T - PRESONUS ERIS 6 PRO ACTIVE

 

[Koeitje]

2) If you like the plasma tweeter, the assumption is that your high frequency hearing is pretty good.

Pretty much all tweeters go right up to the edge of human hearing. The more likely assumption is an internal bias towards speakers with a plasma tweeter because you like the idea of a plasma tweeter.

 

[trioderob]

Pretty much all tweeters go right up to the edge of human hearing. The more likely assumption is an internal bias towards speakers with a plasma tweeter because you like the idea of a plasma tweeter.

I also like the following speakers - do I have an internal bias toward :

1) Von Schweikert Accuton models
2) Japanese field coil speakers
3) Audio note models with internal silver wire speaker coils
4) vintage Quad 57 for vocals

 

[Koeitje]

I also like the following speakers - do I have an internal bias toward :

1) Von Schweikert Accuton models
2) Japanese field coil speakers
3) Audio note models with internal silver wire speaker coils
4) vintage Quad 57 for vocals

Would be interesting to see if those preferences hold in a blind listening test (for example Audio Note makes no effort to create high fidelity products).

 

[trioderob]

.................... (for example Audio Note makes no effort to create high fidelity products).

no they just make products that are wonderful to listen to ..... I was at a demo where they actually physically brought in a talented Cello player into the room so you could go back and forth between hearing him recorded and hearing him live - it was astounding

please post 3 speakers that you like ...... your turn now

 

[Purité Audio]

Edison did very much the same thing , nothing new.
Keith

 

[jae]

I could make the argument that an accurate, well-engineered speaker EQ'd to your preference is almost always going to be a better buy than buying an inferiorly designed speaker that you think might sound better of the box. Esoteric speaker designs aside, I would say make an effort to find the exact characteristics that are causing you to like one speaker more than the typical ones suggested here or that score highly and find out exactly why you like them more and if it is actually reproducible.