Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Jim Taylor]

I never said it was done by me. Read my strings. Wow I think folks here make conclusions then ask questions later it seems. This is done by another party, level matched disconnecting of speakers and not knowing the sequence multiple times. Of course all of the other things come into play.

Use a switchbox. They don't cost much. (Edit: just saw your post above.).)

Regarding "reading your strings" : we don't know you. You have used terminology that may - or may not - be contradictory.

Therefore, we ask questions.

Anyways my hearing is slightly better than the average human

Hearing ability has little or nothing to do with the subject at hand. Everything that the ears hear is processed by the brain, and that's where capabilities (or lack of them) show up as critical. You've been told this before, in the reference to cognitive biases.

I do not think I know everything there are always things to learn.

Well, well ... that's a nice (and much-appreciated) turnaround!

Jim

 

[antcollinet]

Well, well ... that's a nice (and much-appreciated) turnaround!

Well it would be - if @hwest was prepared to go out and learn them.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Well it would be - if @hwest was prepared to go out and learn them.

Yeah, but you know me ... the eternal optimist.

Jim

 

[krabapple]

You said you switched cables, then said it was not done by you. I am confused. Not that it matters. If you yourself did the switching, however it was done except a random switchbox (e.g. ABX you did not wire yourself), then it was not blind. And no I have not read the whole thread, because it just isn't a big enough deal to me to spend my time tilting at audio windmills.

No need to read the whole 'thread. I gathered all of his 2024 posts to the 'are Dacs audible' thread here. It's not a lot. Reading them, you'll see there's no there, there. He's asking us to read things he never wrote.

Are we not entertained?

 

[hwest]

Use a switchbox. They don't cost much. (Edit: just saw your post above.).)

Regarding "reading your strings" : we don't know you. You have used terminology that may - or may not - be contradictory.

Therefore, we ask questions.



Hearing ability has little or nothing to do with the subject at hand. Everything that the ears hear is processed by the brain, and that's where capabilities (or lack of them) show up as critical. You've been told this before, in the reference to cognitive biases.



Well, well ... that's a nice (and much-appreciated) turnaround!

Jim

My initial testing was done by wire switching (not me my wife, started unplugged so I had no idea what was plugged into what and I myself was blindfolded, level matched systems baseline etc. I did buy a switchbox later for this type of testing and my testing with the AVM 90 vs the AV 10 was done on that switchbox. Of course I validate everything with REW later to see what I may have been hearing that was better or worse in each system. I don't completely ignore dips and peaks but anytime we shoot for a flat curve that tends to dumb down my speakers taking away from something the designer hoped to convey through those slight dips and peaks but not severe changes.

 

[solderdude]

I don't completely ignore dips and peaks but anytime we shoot for a flat curve that tends to dumb down my speakers taking away from something the designer hoped to convey through those slight dips and peaks but not severe changes.

How can you tell what a speaker designer (I assume you don't mean DAC/amp/AVR designer) hoped to convey with those slight peaks and dips ?
Speakers in a room never sound/measure the same in different rooms/situations ?

 

[krabapple]

My initial testing was done by wire switching (not me my wife, started unplugged so I had no idea what was plugged into what and I myself was blindfolded, level matched systems baseline etc.

You think this convinces anyone?

I did buy a switchbox later for this type of testing and my testing with the AVM 90 vs the AV 10 was done on that switchbox.

Uh huh. Tell us more about this 'switchbox'.

Of course I validate everything with REW later to see what I may have been hearing that was better or worse in each system.

Measuring in-room response is not really a great way to compare DACs, much less DACs in AVRs.

I don't completely ignore dips and peaks but anytime we shoot for a flat curve that tends to dumb down my speakers taking away from something the designer hoped to convey through those slight dips and peaks but not severe changes.

This is how you measure DACs?

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?


CONTEXT FOR FOLKS ON THIS THREAD: this thread was merged yesterday with a now-defunct ASR thread named "Why I am unable to hear any difference between these DACs" where hwest made many dubious assertions of hearing prowess and then began alluding to blind tests he claims to have done.

 

[MAB]

You think this convinces anyone?



Uh huh. Tell us more about this 'switchbox'.



Measuring in-room response is not really a great way to compare DACs, much less DACs in AVRs.



This is how you measure DACs?

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?


CONTEXT FOR FOLKS ON THIS THREAD: this thread was merged yesterday with a now-defunct ASR thread named "Why I am unable to hear any difference between these DACs" where hwest made many dubious assertions of hearing prowess and then began alluding to blind tests he claims to have done.

He avoided answering SIY's question about how exactly he level-matches.

The BS meter is pegged so hard, unless he shows a video feed of him passing blind tests with his dutiful wife rapid-swapping elements behind a curtain, level matched to better than 1%, with the ghost of David Clark overseeing the entire affair, I'll keep him on ignore.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I don't completely ignore dips and peaks but anytime we shoot for a flat curve that tends to dumb down my speakers taking away from something the designer hoped to convey through those slight dips and peaks

Uh .... so now you have had conversations with designers, and they've told you what they hoped to convey with those "peaks and dips"?

Did they mean the "peaks and dips" that showed up in an anechoic response, or the "peaks and dips" that showed up because of room modes?

I thought you had turned around and were headed in the right direction, but I guess you fooled me, didn't you? I should have listened to @antcollinet . My bad.

Jim

 

[ahofer]

CONTEXT FOR FOLKS ON THIS THREAD: this thread was merged yesterday with a now-defunct ASR thread named "Why I am unable to hear any difference between these DACs" where hwest made many dubious assertions of hearing prowess and then began alluding to blind tests he claims to have done.

You forgot the extravagant claims about his deep expertise in ‘sound’, a knowledge base not in evidence in his posting activity.

 

[hwest]

How can you tell what a speaker designer (I assume you don't mean DAC/amp/AVR designer) hoped to convey with those slight peaks and dips ?
Speakers in a room never sound/measure the same in different rooms/situations ?

I'm aware of this and have heard all types of speakers. I usually start by taking them outdoors since I don't have anechoic chamber to see how they sound without room reflections if you're asking me about speakers and the difference. I know some focus on Mids, too many focus on highs. I can tell you after hearing Perlistens I prefer those over just about anything at this point around that price range.

 

[hwest]

Uh .... so now you have had conversations with designers, and they've told you what they hoped to convey with those "peaks and dips"?

Did they mean the "peaks and dips" that showed up in an anechoic response, or the "peaks and dips" that showed up because of room modes?

I thought you had turned around and were headed in the right direction, but I guess you fooled me, didn't you? I should have listened to @antcollinet . My bad.

Jim

We all know there is a speaker for everyone. Too many people think ear jarring highs are good and too many designers build that in as a preference without balancing out the mids, this is just going around and hearing these so called high end speakers for myself. Of course people eventually end up toning those highs down, this is just reality. I know there isn't a substitute for a good crossover design and quality of inductors etc. A speaker designer may want to have a dip in those harsh highs per their own design and we all know that.

 

[Jim Taylor]

We all know there is a speaker for everyone.

Wrong. Speak for yourself - you seem capable of doing that. But it's not good to try and speak for everyone else.

Too many people think ear jarring highs are good and too many designers build that in as a preference without balancing out the mids, this is just going around and hearing these so called high end speakers for myself.

Your preferences cannot be used as a reference for comparisons as to how other people judge sound ... especially in different rooms. Your comments lack controls and calibration, and are totally subjective. IOW, totally worthless.

this is just reality

From reading the many things that you have already posted, I doubt that you are one to tell us what is reality and what is not reality.

and we all know that.

Your opinion is yours ... other people's opinions are theirs. As before, you pretend to speak for everyone. It's best not to do that.

Jim

 

[solderdude]

I'm aware of this and have heard all types of speakers. I usually start by taking them outdoors since I don't have anechoic chamber to see how they sound without room reflections if you're asking me about speakers and the difference. I know some focus on Mids, too many focus on highs. I can tell you after hearing Perlistens I prefer those over just about anything at this point around that price range.

I asked how you know what the designer hoped to convey (with dips and peaks). No speaker designer intends to have their speaker listened to outdoors (well, except outdoor speakers) so listening to them outdoors is not how the designer intends to have their speakers used nor anechoic.
Speakers are designed to be used in living rooms. As rooms differ how do you know what the designer's intend was as your living room was not the room(s) it was designed in.

O.K. it is clear you are a Perlisten fan and that speaker obviously performs well in your situation. Doesn't mean it will perform equally well in other rooms or to other people.

 

[Petrushka]

Maybe amps need color preference buttons like the photo editors on phones.

 

[hwest]

I asked how you know what the designer hoped to convey (with dips and peaks). No speaker designer intends to have their speaker listened to outdoors (well, except outdoor speakers) so listening to them outdoors is not how the designer intends to have their speakers used nor anechoic.
Speakers are designed to be used in living rooms. As rooms differ how do you know what the designer's intend was as your living room was not the room(s) it was designed in.

O.K. it is clear you are a Perlisten fan and that speaker obviously performs well in your situation. Doesn't mean it will perform equally well in other rooms or to other people.

There are of course sounds that hit your directly and yes no one can get away from reflections that's a known by everyone nothing new. I start with a basline to understand the capabilities of a speaker before I dump it into any room. On axis and off axis stuff is important of course to the designer and sounds that hit you directly shouldn't be downplayed, room correction for timing is clearly an option that most use. I have an odd shaped room that has a lot of volume so I have mine setup perfectly for my room. I said I like Perlistens I don't own them, I have B&W 804 D3's at this time and able to get those sounding really good, however based on the direct reflections out of these units I know I can get the Perslistens sounding better as they already do. It's no mystery they use just better quality components and their design team knows what it takes to produce some powerful sound not your typical designer for everyone, mass produced catch all speakers they are not.

 

[xaviescacs]

Every time I see new comments in here I'm surprised folks still pay attention to this thread. Then I realize they don't, but they get dragged here relentlessly. This is such a titanic task...

 

[hwest]

Every time I see new comments in here I'm surprised folks still pay attention to this thread. Then I realize they don't, but they get dragged here relentlessly. This is such a titanic task...

I'm sharing real world experiences vs just the numbers, folks should pay attention to that.

 

[Chagall]

Every time I see new comments in here I'm surprised folks still pay attention to this thread. Then I realize they don't, but they get dragged here relentlessly. This is such a titanic task...

And it never ends...

 

[SIY]

Wife helped me

There we go, the trifecta!