I have already seen this. Wow you guys aren't listening I said level matched, blind, someone swapping cables, etc, etc, everything in Amir's video.
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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?
- Thread starter aeroborne
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Then there's no excuses for the evidence-free claims you've been slinging.
Did you finance your waterbed?
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I don't care one whit whether you have SEEN it. Have you DONE it? If you haven't, then your comments have no value ... absolutely none at all.
Jim
Wow you guys aren't listening to me, I said I level matched. I switched cables and it was blind following Amirs guide and you're still questioning everything.
Your 'ears' can't help be flawed, your arguments are obtuse and off the mark, and you almost certainly are not hearing real differences between DACs. Cheers.
Svend P
Active Member
They don't. All amplifiers sound the same. This was tested in 1987 by Stereo Review. Please see page 80 and onwards:
https://americanradiohistory.com/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/80s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1987-01.pdf
oleg87
Senior Member
If my experience with complex AVR-type boxes is anything to go by, it's very easy to overlook some DSP in the loop, which would obviously cause readily audible differences.
So once again, anecdotal subjective reports of vague differences without any data or measurements are just not very useful.
So once again, anecdotal subjective reports of vague differences without any data or measurements are just not very useful.
My testing is done in 2 channel stereo mode for mains and Anthem does an excellent job at 2 channel. DSP we can all say it doesn't make a difference but manufacturers that to through the effort o chose ESS over AKM tend to do a better job overall in the implementation from what I have seen. If there is a great implementation of AKM somewhere show me where that is, it's certainly not in Marantz or Denon.
How, exactly, did you level match?
And on the internet , no one knows you're a dog.
A couple of years ago on this thread you said you were just here to entertain us. So I'm guessing this is a clown show you've been aiming for..
I've reviewed your 2024 output on this thread. In no case do you describe blind tests anywhere near the level of detail and rigor you'd need to convince anyone here, much less proof that you've been 'following Amir's guide'. I don't find a description of 'baseline settings and levels ' being 'matched' or any other crucial matter. Just your usual garble and lots of blather about comparing AVRs, sighted (on a thread about DACs, specifically). Did I miss something?
I'll dump your work here as I found it from searching 'hwest' (author) and this thread, for just 2024 (before that, your last posts are from 2021), and let the gentle reader do their own review. I've bolded the text 'blind' and where there was any discernable discussion of your test method.
I have never even heard of that Hapi, or Dangerous Convert-8 DAC but I see the description of it sounds good. I don't know of anyone that has tested it or heard it but I'd say it seems pretty raw in terms of how it's packaged. Would it stand out against a good ESS implementation so much that you can hear it given the total package in comes in? What brands even use this DAC and do the spend enough as a low profile company on the supporting design since I'm seeing these steel boxes around $2,900. It's a risk without being able to verify the results in person without actually ordering one of these online, just keep that in mind.
This is true that's why I always listen to the sound and not the metal box. Of course I have been exposed to so many different systems I'm probably more qualified than most when knowing what to listen for and understanding those dead sounding big box brands over others. However, I still haven't heard an implementation of an AKM that I'm very happy with in any brand to date. ESS implementations all seem to have a more alive sound with separation I haven't heard in Marantz, Denon, and other big box brands, I see ratings on the AVM 10 and Denon and I just don't agree with their rankings based on experience and understanding what to listen for.
You are right listening alone doesn't it takes some intelligence and understanding of what it means to hear great sound. Careful listening, blind tests, knowing when you hear rumbling or distortion, knowing that your speaker articulation is doing what it should to produce the sound and pressure vs that thin sound you may hear. Most won't know to listen for all of these failures. Listening to this degree is certainly not above my head so you may want to get off your high horse. I understand sound better than 90% of the population and what to listen for.
This is another annoying thing about some folks here. Don't make assumptions about my abilities you simply do not know.
I'm not saying I have Amir's ears, I'm saying I know what sounds good and have intensely studied sound beyond what most have. I will say most don't so I'm not willing to put myself in the category of most nor am I willing to say I have the same knowledge as Amir. That's my compromise because too many people know nothing about sound quality.
I have done blind testing, but also the difference between many of these units are real. The rating system here shows good graphs and measurements but I'm telling you that's not everything because it's obvious to many with some listening experience. I would put myself in the category of experienced as I said but of course I'm not comparing myself to Amir. I'm only saying that most people have no idea what to listen for in great sound that's why the big box items sell so well, they come here and see great numbers and think that equates to great sound but it simply doesn't, I won't try to convince anyone but that's reality like it or not.
I have access to a lot of different gear that I can have someone switch for me so I don't know in the background what's happening. I also have a method at home for testing systems with the help of my wife and disconnected systems allowing her to make the choice on the connections so I don't know what I'm listening to. I'll use several methods one is to leverage swapping out speaker connections when testing my main units or amps and the other is to change cables on different speakers.
What I'm telling you is a Marantz or Denon against an Anthem AV 90 or Lyndorf simply isn't the same experience and I don't think it ever will be with or without being blindfolded. I have tuned each system to my liking and tried this test as well with the same results. In fact I can't even get the big box brands tuned to my liking because they are not capable of producing great sound. There are standard settings and tweaked settings for testing the main units. Speakers are easy to test, AMP's similar. I'm not running expensive AMP's because of how I have tested them against Emotiva AMPS and found the Emotivas are just as good if not better than much more expensive AMPS. Many ways to do testing, the jewelry look of a unit doesn't impress me to the point where I hear different sound, I think that could be true with many so I do understand that concept. I know I give up some features with the Anthem AVM 90 but the sound is simply better than the AV 10 or Denon so that's why I chose it for my newest unit. I waited to jump from a very good older Onkyo Separate to something that sounded significantly better, nothing made by Marantz or Denon caused me to move away from my original unit until I heard the AVM 90. Numbers wise I see that the AV 10 ranks higher than the AVM 90 which is why I'm saying I don't agree with that ranking per se and it simply proves my point as tons of folks are saying the same about the preference of the AVM 90 over those other units, it's not just me saying this.
I understand the mechanical limitations of hearing and perception vs being able to analyze what you hear it comes down to that, we can talk about sensory perception and psychoacoustics all day long and limitations and ranges age etc these topics go off in a direction pointing out all limitations and what people don't pay attention to, you just need to be aware of any limitations and think about what you're hearing not just say that sounds good or bad. As I said most don't do this.
Don't assume. As I said baseline settings and levels match. Then tweaked settings with levels matched.
Ok. So tell me why Marantz and Denon sound better or as good as let's say an AVM 90 or Lyndorf? I'd like to know how or if you've come to that conclusion somehow.
Any of my testing is done in the same room whether at home or in a demo studio that I have access to listen to any gear I want.
Numbers only get you so far which has turned out to be very true and people have woken up to the fact now. Too much emphasis on the curve and numbers then we talking out of both ides of our mouths to discuss the minute measurements that are likely not even noticeable vs the results of an overall system.
Measurements aren't everything folks, get over it.
How many people agree with me on the Anthem AVM 90 over the Marantz AV 10 or Denon. I would say 100% think the AVM 90 sounds better but here it's ranked lower by numbers. Have I made my point yet? I jumped on the AVM 90 wagon very early because I heard several versions of them and when they went to the ESS DAC I jumped on it for good reason which proved to be a great decision. I can bring a flat curve to any system and typically it won't sound better it will sound worse.
I have already seen this. Wow you guys aren't listening I said level matched, blind, someone swapping cables, etc, etc, everything in Amir's video.
Wow you guys aren't listening to me, I said I level matched. I switched cables and it was blind following Amirs guide and you're still questioning everything.
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MAB
Major Contributor
He did the same on the Marantz AV10 thread, where he clearly had no idea what level-matched is, and his work in general indicates he doesn't know why it's important.
Also, his claim that 100% agree with him on the superiority of the AVM90 over the AM10 doesn't hold any water at all.
Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review
So they "feel" that they sound different? Cause when you don't do a really good 1:1 listening test (levels matched at leat 0,3dB, blind switching) you can't define these rather small differences. Doesn't mean that this "feel" isn't important for the owner! And experienced users don't need to be...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Anthem AVM 90 Audio Video Preamp/Processor
You seem to be describing yourself, that you heard "great sound" from certain electronic devices. That's highly subjective measurement, that may not apply to other people. Did you know that the AVM90, that you seem to think has that "great sound" originally used (hard to find one now...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Thanks for reminding me of the 'entertain us' comment, he is running an Insane Clown Posse tribute show.
If that's your stance here to attack people that disagree with you then it's not a good stance to take. I'm saying and I have always said measurements count to a degree when something is awful you can validate the reasons in measurements but acceptable is where the problem is, let's face it you can't back up great sound with measurements alone and you never will be able to do that. Your point exactly I think some are in awe of the carbon fiber on the AV 10 vs the better quality sound in the AVM 90 and that in fact is allowing your brain to override with the visuals. I'm certainly not in that catagory.He did the same on the Marantz AV10 thread, where he clearly had no idea what level-matched is, and his work in general indicates he doesn't know why it's important.
Also, his claim that 100% agree with him on the superiority of the AVM90 over the AM10 doesn't hold any water at all.
Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review
So they "feel" that they sound different? Cause when you don't do a really good 1:1 listening test (levels matched at leat 0,3dB, blind switching) you can't define these rather small differences. Doesn't mean that this "feel" isn't important for the owner! And experienced users don't need to be...Anthem AVM 90 Audio Video Preamp/Processor
You seem to be describing yourself, that you heard "great sound" from certain electronic devices. That's highly subjective measurement, that may not apply to other people. Did you know that the AVM90, that you seem to think has that "great sound" originally used (hard to find one now...
Thanks for reminding me of the 'entertain us' comment, he is running an Insane Clown Posse tribute show.
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Sounds like you're following the flawed protocols of a certain person down in Texas. How are you switching? Are you using a switchbox? This isn't supposed to be done by you, it's supposed to be performed by a disinterested party with no "tells" (clues) available to you.
It sounds more and more that you're simply feeding us a pile of guff, without any intention of abiding by the rigor necessary for validation. A sincere person would follow the necessary protocols - and follow them scrupulously - in order to remove all doubt as to the results.
Personally, I doubt that's why you're here. But if it is, show us a video of the level-matching process and the actual test, with second-party switcher. No need to show your face; we're not interested in that.
Jim
OK, I have read enough of this thread. I’m locking it so we can merge it into the Catch-All thread. Stand by to stand by…
Merge looks successful.
Carry on carrying on…
Carry on carrying on…
I never said it was done by me. Read my strings. Wow I think folks here make conclusions then ask questions later it seems. This is done by another party, level matched disconnecting of speakers and not knowing the sequence multiple times. Of course all of the other things come into play.Sounds like you're following the flawed protocols of a certain person down in Texas. How are you switching? Are you using a switchbox? This isn't supposed to be done by you, it's supposed to be performed by a disinterested party with no "tells" (clues) available to you.
It sounds more and more that you're simply feeding us a pile of guff, without any intention of abiding by the rigor necessary for validation. A sincere person would follow the necessary protocols - and follow them scrupulously - in order to remove all doubt as to the results.
Personally, I doubt that's why you're here. But if it is, show us a video of the level-matching process and the actual test, with second-party switcher. No need to show your face; we're not interested in that.
Jim
Comparing different AVR/AVP components is meaningless unless room correction and EQ is not part of the testing. Otherwise, that will mask any other differences. You have to test using "pure direct" or whatever bypasses all the processing. No idea if that was done or not. My SDP-75 measures worse than some other components, but the room correction is superior and more flexible than other AVR/AVPs I have owned, more than enough for me to appreciate the difference.
You said you switched cables, then said it was not done by you. I am confused. Not that it matters. If you yourself did the switching, however it was done except a random switchbox (e.g. ABX you did not wire yourself), then it was not blind. And no I have not read the whole thread, because it just isn't a big enough deal to me to spend my time tilting at audio windmills.
Wife helped me. I used that method and switchbox later once my switchbox arrived that didn't change my opinion on anything. I understand the concept don't' panic I know what I'm doing.
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