Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[ahofer]

For human ear it’s totally fine. If you place question in that perspective.)

The human ear is, indeed, the perspective from which we are typically viewing audio measurements.

 

[Newman]

That was on purpose, you figure out if that is true

Rubbish, you have done it twice now over a year apart, and then haven’t even used the same description of the razor each time. So I’m putting it down to Hanlon’s razor.

 

[dped90]

I've heard plenty of well measuring DACs and they all sound different. As I said, to the degree of which they differ sonically depends.

DAC implementation matters. From the power supply to the digital filter, to the analog filter, to the output stage, to the layout, to the quality of parts, to the clocking, and etc.

Measurements don't tell us everything. And everything does have a sound.

Measurements tell us a whole lot but far from everything that's important. Your perspective seems rare among these parts. My problem is that I need to choose among the few best sounding 8 channel DACs available. I've looked at the features and read what's available about the design of the Merging Hapi, Dangerous Convert-8 and even the prosumer Okto DAC 8 Pro. Might you or someone you know had any listening experience with them? If yes, please share comparative impressions.

 

[krabapple]

Measurements tell us a whole lot but far from everything that's important.

And what would that be?

Your perspective seems rare among these parts.

So is RobS. Hasn't posted since Apr 2023

My problem is that I need to choose among the few best sounding 8 channel DACs available. I've looked at the features and read what's available about the design of the Merging Hapi, Dangerous Convert-8 and even the prosumer Okto DAC 8 Pro. Might you or someone you know had any listening experience with them? If yes, please share comparative impressions.

Problem: thinking that some stranger's online sighted 'impression' of a DAC's sound will be accurately informative about it

 

[dped90]

And what would that be?




So is RobS. Hasn't posted since Apr 2023



Problem: thinking that some stranger's online sighted 'impression' of a DAC's sound will be accurately informative about it

I merely-and precisely-asked for this: "Might you or someone you know had any listening experience with them?"

 

[Killingbeans]

My problem is that I need to choose among the few best sounding 8 channel DACs available.

Stop worrying about their sound. Problem solved

 

[SIY]

Your perspective seems rare among these parts.

There's a reason for that. This isn't "Audio Superstition and Storytelling Review."

 

[krabapple]

I merely-and precisely-asked for this: "Might you or someone you know had any listening experience with them?"

And I was merely asking why you believe "Measurements tell us a whole lot but far from everything that's important."

Because that's not true...as far as the sound of DACs goes.

On ASR a more useful answer could come from asking: has anyone done good measurements on these DACs?

 

[MAB]

Measurements tell us a whole lot but far from everything that's important. Your perspective seems rare among these parts.

Please explain what measurements do not tell us?
Specific examples please, with evidence that differences were heard, in level matched tests, unsighted.

 

[hwest]

Measurements tell us a whole lot but far from everything that's important. Your perspective seems rare among these parts. My problem is that I need to choose among the few best sounding 8 channel DACs available. I've looked at the features and read what's available about the design of the Merging Hapi, Dangerous Convert-8 and even the prosumer Okto DAC 8 Pro. Might you or someone you know had any listening experience with them? If yes, please share comparative impressions.

I have never even heard of that Hapi, or Dangerous Convert-8 DAC but I see the description of it sounds good. I don't know of anyone that has tested it or heard it but I'd say it seems pretty raw in terms of how it's packaged. Would it stand out against a good ESS implementation so much that you can hear it given the total package in comes in? What brands even use this DAC and do the spend enough as a low profile company on the supporting design since I'm seeing these steel boxes around $2,900. It's a risk without being able to verify the results in person without actually ordering one of these online, just keep that in mind.

 

[Killingbeans]

Measurements tell us a whole lot but far from everything that's important.

Just to make it clear; the general consensus her on ASR is that a lot of people will hear differences between even well designed DACs, and that these differences likely won't be evident in measurements. It's nearly impossible to avoid sighted bias completely, and a lot of, if not most of, the people enjoying the hobby take great pleasure in spending time listening to the elaborate stories and drooling over the fancy components + enclosures with equally awe-inspiring price tags. There's just no way it won't color the things you hear, and in that sense it is "important".

Although, the the big problem here is that those kind of influences are both very numerous, very inconsistent and very personal.

If one dude really likes the design aesthetics a DAC enclosure, and it influences his experience enough to get the impression of "better sound", while another dude hates those design aesthetics and thereby gets the impression of "bad sound", then who is right? And more importantly; are any of those impressions worth anything as data points (hint: nope), or are they just stories from people in specific situations dealing with specific cocktails of bias?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying audio gear as an object of art and/or an elaborate masterpiece from a passionate designer. And yes, those things can't really be seen in measurements. But if you define things that are "important" solely as audible discrepancies in the output signal, then they most definitely can be measured with ease.

 

[hwest]

Just to make it clear; the general consensus her on ASR is that a lot of people will hear differences between even well designed DACs, and that these differences likely won't be evident in measurements. It's nearly impossible to avoid sighted bias completely, and a lot of, if not most of, the people enjoying the hobby take great pleasure in spending time listening to the elaborate stories and drooling over the fancy components + enclosures with equally awe-inspiring price tags. There's just no way it won't color the things you hear, and in that sense it is "important".

Although, the the big problem here is that those kind of influences are both very numerous, very inconsistent and very personal.

If one dude really likes the design aesthetics a DAC enclosure, and it influences his experience enough to get the impression of "better sound", while another dude hates those design aesthetics and thereby gets the impression of "bad sound", then who is right? And more importantly; are any of those impressions worth anything as data points (hint: nope), or are they just stories from people in specific situations dealing with specific cocktails of bias?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying audio gear as an object of art and/or an elaborate masterpiece from a passionate designer. And yes, those things can't really be seen in measurements. But if you define things that are "important" solely as audible discrepancies in the output signal, then they most definitely can be measured with ease.

This is true that's why I always listen to the sound and not the metal box . Of course I have been exposed to so many different systems I'm probably more qualified than most when knowing what to listen for and understanding those dead sounding big box brands over others. However, I still haven't heard an implementation of an AKM that I'm very happy with in any brand to date. ESS implementations all seem to have a more alive sound with separation I haven't heard in Marantz, Denon, and other big box brands, I see ratings on the AVM 10 and Denon and I just don't agree with their rankings based on experience and understanding what to listen for.

 

[Killingbeans]

This is true that's why I always listen to the sound and not the metal box .

Your brain won't actually let you do that. Not unless you do a proper soul-sucking blind test. Sad fact in life.

Do such a test between well designed AKM and ESS DACs (using comparable reconstruction filters), and I'll pretty much guarantee you'll get your mind blown.

 

[ahofer]

This is true that's why I always listen to the sound and not the metal box . Of course I have been exposed to so many different systems I'm probably more qualified than most when knowing what to listen for and understanding those dead sounding big box brands over others. However, I still haven't heard an implementation of an AKM that I'm very happy with in any brand to date. ESS implementations all seem to have a more alive sound with separation I haven't heard in Marantz, Denon, and other big box brands, I see ratings on the AVM 10 and Denon and I just don't agree with their rankings based on experience and understanding what to listen for.

Hoo boy, that flew over your head.

Listening to lots of equipment in no way constitutes expertise.

You are already a few deep into these:

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[hwest]

Hoo boy, that flew over your head.

Listening to lots of equipment in no way constitutes expertise.

You are already a few deep into these:

A list of Audiophile Fallacies

I posted this in another thread, but I thought it might be useful to open source some more ideas in a separate thread. “To be a genius is to be misunderstood. But to be misunderstood is not to be a genius”. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson ..nor is being hard to understand - me. Ad Vinum Audio is like...

audiosciencereview.com

You are right listening alone doesn't it takes some intelligence and understanding of what it means to hear great sound. Careful listening, blind tests, knowing when you hear rumbling or distortion, knowing that your speaker articulation is doing what it should to produce the sound and pressure vs that thin sound you may hear. Most won't know to listen for all of these failures. Listening to this degree is certainly not above my head so you may want to get off your high horse. I understand sound better than 90% of the population and what to listen for.

 

[ahofer]

You are right listening alone doesn't it takes some intelligence and understanding of what it means to hear great sound. Careful listening, blind tests, knowing when you hear rumbling or distortion, knowing that your speaker articulation is doing what it should to produce the sound and pressure vs that thin sound you may hear. Most won't know to listen for all of these failures. Listening to this degree is certainly not above my head so you may want to get off your high horse. I understand sound better than 90% of the population and what to listen for.

I’m not the one making claims against available scientific evidence and asserting exceptional expertise. Your puffery has no power here.

And it was the plain meaning of that post that went over your head. It had no relation to your audio-foo, just your reading comprehension.

 

[Jim Taylor]

. Listening to this degree is certainly not above my head so you may want to get off your high horse. I understand sound better than 90% of the population and what to listen for.

One of the things that attracted me to ASR originally was the presence of industry experts. There are people here who are movers and shakers (so to speak) and speaker manufacturers as well as tube experts and people who use mathematics and theory far, far beyond my capacity to understand. I'm pretty sure that these people, incredibly talented as they are, all have one thing in common:

They've never said, " ... you may want to get off your high horse", nor have they said, " I understand sound better than 90% of the population ...".

Those who understand more, help others understand more. They don't rule humanity, they serve humanity. Are you one of them?

Jim

 

[Blumlein 88]

You are right listening alone doesn't it takes some intelligence and understanding of what it means to hear great sound. Careful listening, blind tests, knowing when you hear rumbling or distortion, knowing that your speaker articulation is doing what it should to produce the sound and pressure vs that thin sound you may hear. Most won't know to listen for all of these failures. Listening to this degree is certainly not above my head so you may want to get off your high horse. I understand sound better than 90% of the population and what to listen for.

To hear a difference, there must be one in the signal that can be heard. You cannot hear the DAC chips by brand because they perform well enough there is nothing reaching a level to hear. So if you really know what to listen for, you would say you don't hear a difference.

 

[oleg87]

One of the things that attracted me to ASR is that people tirelessly harass self-proclaimed DAC hearers

 

[Platypus20]

One of the things that attracted me to ASR is that people tirelessly harass self-proclaimed DAC hearers

The sport of kings