Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[AustreV]

If you think so, demonstrate it. Do a level-matched comparison, ears-only, basic controls, and show that you can distinguish them.

So far, nobody has done so in decades of these claims unless at least one amp was broken, overloaded, or had a non-flat frequency response (which would not be the case here). Nobody. You could be the one!

There is no "perfectly flat" FR anywhere.
Secondly, we are not exactly enough can translate numbers to the imagination, so we could exactly and clearly understand how it would sound. We only can tell from our experience and theory how it should sound. Okay(?). So its all done from "imagination" that in any case can be distorted by many factors.
In some cases it will be easier for casual person to hear and describe what was right or wrong to him for example, than say in numbers how much Dbs he was needed or lack in certain in frequency. Or how much sound pressure in numbers he was needed to achive same result for another headphone pair. For example.

 

[ahofer]

There is no "perfectly flat" FR anywhere.

He means within strict thresholds of audibility.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

audiosciencereview.com

There’s lots of good reading/info here, if you can be open to it. Most of us are lapsed subjectivists.

Secondly, we are not exactly enough can translate numbers to the imagination, so we could exactly and clearly understand how it would sound. We only can tell from our experience and theory how it should sound. Okay(?). So its all done from "imagination" that in any case can be distorted by many factors.

I don’t fully understand this assertion, but I don’t think I agree. When evaluating electronics, it’s simple to understand from measurements whether the component is transparent, and that, and adequate power/features/reliability, is all that is necessary. Speakers take a lot more effort, but the principles of smooth directivity, low distortion, and a flat on-axis response, combined with knowing your own preference for wide or narrow higher frequency dispersion, can take you a long way. I bought my last pair of speakers on measurements, and they are the best I’ve ever had, even without the room-specific EQ I’m using.

So experience counts, but I don’t think listening to lots of gear in different rooms without measurements as a reference, or being able to recycle the sales specs, counts as experience at all. If it did, I would have been highly experienced ages ago, and so would the audio salesmen I used to work with. But they were always talking through their pants (“pertrousorating” as my kids and I call it).

 

[AustreV]

Why color the amplifier output when a person is going to use parametric equalization anyway? When one has a colored amp it may not match with certain speakers and in some situations it may be horrible.

It already was said that any new element in the chain will degrade signal quality. On low quality amp/dacs you wont hear it for sure. But some think that almost all amps are so good now that you wont hear any differences. I can't a agree with that.
I tried APO EQ and Room eq. When it apply any minimal change on 1 db I feel overall sound became muddy on all sound spectrum. If your sure it was only imagination - okay.
For me its like math. Or physics. For example in most cases xlr better than rca nylon usual distance something like 50cm and more, but people would not agree. Its debatable maybe.
Logically if every cheap dac would play so good and clear majority would know that and used. Cause practical test form psychology. In another words it hase more impact, even if your thought in the opposite way before that experience. In simple words.
People for sure affected by many social tricks and lie but I can't belive people so bad that can't see obvious things then. The only main reason majority of people swap amps and headphones and other stuff its their unique sound characteristics. Cause they differ. In neutral amps its harder to prove it for sure, but most vintage home usage amps where crated with coloration. So people buy at least some "sound form".

 

[Titurel]

There’s lots of good reading/info here, if you can be open to it. Most of us are lapsed subjectivists.

Speak for yourself. I'm a recently lapsed absolutist. I hit the wall.

 

[AustreV]

He means within strict thresholds of audibility.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

audiosciencereview.com

There’s lots of good reading/info here, if you can be open to it. Most of us are lapsed subjectivists.

Thanks. Will check this topic.

 

[SIY]

There is no "perfectly flat" FR anywhere.

If something is flat within 0.1dB (the vast majority of engineered amps), yes, it is perfectly flat.

The rest of the handwaving excuses for not using basic ears-only controls is just null content verbiage. Do the experiment to back up your claims. Otherwise, I expect you won't be here much longer.

 

[AustreV]

If your amp has audibly significant amounts of distortion or frequency response deviation, maybe they could.
If it doesn't, there's nothing to "shape" except the biases and expectations of would-be customers.

Okay. Its not secret that tube amp its a distorted mess compared to any measured well integrated amp. But people say tune amps sound fantastic and they did take pleasure from listening experience or is it not true and they pretend every time or mimic without realizing it?
Same example with guitar amp, that where created from distorted/broken version of regular amp of that time. Can we consider that all people were forced or convinced that they sounded nice, so they began to love them?

 

[ahofer]

t already was said that any new element in the chain will degrade signal quality. On low quality amp/dacs you wont hear it for sure. But some think that almost all amps are so good now that you wont hear any differences. I can't an agree with that.

Somewhere on this site is a test between an unchanged digital recording, and one that has been through DAC->ADC eight times. I’d be interested if you can tell the difference. Certainly, in the studio, signals are put through a myriad of components and translations including EQ before the recording is finalized.

Accept the good news: Electronics are a largely solved problem. Focus on transducers.

 

[AustreV]

If something is flat within 0.1dB (the vast majority of engineered amps), yes, it is perfectly flat.

The rest of the handwaving excuses for not using basic ears-only controls is just null content verbiage. Do the experiment to back up your claims. Otherwise, I expect you won't be here much longer.

Mathematically this is already an incorrect statement if expressed in the language of numbers, which is so loved here.

 

[SIY]

Mathematically this is already an incorrect statement if expressed in the language of numbers, which is so loved here.

Please correct my math. Use equations and numbers.

 

[ahofer]

 

[Doodski]

some think that almost all amps are so good now that you wont hear any differences. I can't a agree with that.

I agree with that. In a blind test lower priced Sony amps from the STK IC family could be differentiated. The mid-fi amps and receivers all sounded pretty exactly the same as the others and the sweet spots for power output where ~50W/ch, ~80 W/ch and ~120 W/ch. Above this power rating and the big power amps come into play.

I tried APO EQ and Room eq. When it apply any minimal change on 1 db I feel overall sound became muddy on all sound spectrum. If your sure it was only imagination - okay.

I think maybe you where biased and made a decision.

For me its like math. Or physics. For example in most cases xlr better than rca nylon usual distance something like 50cm and more, but people would not agree. Its debatable maybe.

It's not debatable. XLR/differential/balanced is better for short and better for longer distances is most ways. It's not required for a home audio system but it's great to see it being adopted.

 

[Doodski]

Somewhere on this site is a test between an unchanged digital recording, and one that has been through DAC->ADC eight times. I’d be interested if you can tell the difference. Certainly, in the studio, signals are put through a myriad of components and translations including EQ before the recording is finalized.

Accept the good news: Electronics are a largely solved problem. Focus on transducers.

The post was made by @Blumlein 88.

 

[oleg87]

Okay. Its not secret that tube amp its a distorted mess compared to any measured well integrated amp. But people say tune amps sound fantastic and they did take pleasure from listening experience. or is it not true and they pretend every time or mimic without realizing it?
Same example with guitar amp, that where created from distorted/broken version of regular amp of that time. Can we consider that all people were forced or convinced that they sounded nice, so they began to love him?

Now you're talking about something entirely different. I am making no value judgement about the desirability of tube amps or subtle amounts of distortion.

If a tube amp has, say, distortion products 40dB below the signal under normal listening conditions, or if its output impedance will produce an audible FR shift into a given transducer, it is not an extraordinary claim that these amps have a "sound" that an engineer might be able to sculpt. But that's not the kind of "sound" most audiophiles of the subjectivist tendency are talking about when it comes to the topic of DACs and performant solid-state amps.

 

[AustreV]

View attachment 382465

View attachment 382464

Well its simple. One of the values should not be greater than zero, which is impossible in the physical world, only in the mathematical one.
Correct me if this is not accurate.

 

[Doodski]

Mathematically this is already an incorrect statement if expressed in the language of numbers,

You mean +/- 0.1 dB being considered flat enough for the human ear?

 

[AustreV]

I agree with that. In a blind test lower priced Sony amps from the STK IC family could be differentiated. The mid-fi amps and receivers all sounded pretty exactly the same as the others and the sweet spots for power output where ~50W/ch, ~80 W/ch and ~120 W/ch. Above this power rating and the big power amps come into play.

I think maybe you where biased and made a decision.

It's not debatable. XLR/differential/balanced is better for short and better for longer distances is most ways. It's not required for a home audio system but it's great to see it being adopted.

Okay. After some testing suggested here I can change my mind. Why not. I don't mind to sell all stuff and sit on cheap box with EQ.
Why then needed to measure so many dacs that set in similar manner. If they are already measuring well and can give you any sound you want using just eq or dsp without any noticable quality losses. For example topping dacs.

 

[SIY]

Well its simple. One of the values should not be greater than zero, which is impossible in the physical world, only in the mathematical one.
Correct me if this is not accurate.

OK, at this point, it's clear you're doing a leg pull.

 

[Doodski]

Okay. After some testing suggested here I can change my mind. Why not. I don't mind to sell all stuff and sit on cheap box with EQ.

It will open your mind after taking blind tests. Things now are not as they really are. Meaning the non-colored amps will sound so close to each other that you won't know them apart as long as you don't overdrive the amps and clip them.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Somewhere on this site is a test between an unchanged digital recording, and one that has been through DAC->ADC eight times. I’d be interested if you can tell the difference. Certainly, in the studio, signals are put through a myriad of components and translations including EQ before the recording is finalized.

Accept the good news: Electronics are a largely solved problem. Focus on transducers.

Look at post #12565 in this thread.