Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[AustreV]

Oh good, now we're using Head-fi as a reference

You are talking with people or site itself? Omg.

 

[AustreV]

Now you are presenting your guesses and uninformed ramblings as fact. That’s even worse.

Based on what did you draw such conclusions? I did a lot of tests. Swapping gear in the chain. Where using apo, roon eq etc. If your ears cant act like an instrument for certain degree when difference is obvious and experiment where executed very "simply" I cant understand how you can make decisions in your life then. Just test it on high quality gear and get results. Did it several times in different time and combinations and get result again. Whats difficult to understand..
Its not "guess", its a result. If you wanna "think" that way, okay. Its your "comfort zone" maybe.
Of course, there may be a technical error or misinterpretation, but not in the general cases mentioned above.

 

[MAB]

Based on what did you draw such conclusions? I did a lot of tests. Swapping gear in the chain. Where using apo, roon eq etc. If your ears cant act like an instrument for certain degree when difference is obvious and experiment where executed very "simply" I cant understand how you can make decisions in your life then. Just test it on high quality gear and get results. Did it several times in different time and combinations and get result again. Whats difficult to understand..
Its not "guess", its a result. If you wanna "think" that way, okay. Its your "comfort zone" maybe.
Of course, there may be a technical error or misinterpretation, but not in the general cases mentioned above.

Ears aren’t useful for measuring. This is something you should read up on and understand.

 

[AustreV]

Ears aren’t useful for measuring. This is something you should read up on and understand.

For measure "obvious"/huge difference they can be used. Thats why "target SINAD" was created (as "comfort reference" for people ears).

 

[Grotti]

Based on what did you draw such conclusions? I did a lot of tests. Swapping gear in the chain. Where using apo, roon eq etc. If your ears cant act like an instrument for certain degree when difference is obvious and experiment where executed very "simply" I cant understand how you can make decisions in your life then. Just test it on high quality gear and get results. Did it several times in different time and combinations and get result again. Whats difficult to understand..
Its not "guess", its a result. If you wanna "think" that way, okay. Its your "comfort zone" maybe.
Of course, there may be a technical error or misinterpretation, but not in the general cases mentioned above.

Swapping equipment and software under sighted and most likely not level-matched conditions is exactly the opposite of a scientific approach to evaluate percepted differences in signal quality. You might read something about proper ABX testing before you make claims like this.....

 

[IAtaman]

Based on what did you draw such conclusions? I did a lot of tests. Swapping gear in the chain. Where using apo, roon eq etc. If your ears cant act like an instrument for certain degree when difference is obvious and experiment where executed very "simply" I cant understand how you can make decisions in your life then. Just test it on high quality gear and get results. Did it several times in different time and combinations and get result again. Whats difficult to understand..
Its not "guess", its a result. If you wanna "think" that way, okay. Its your "comfort zone" maybe.
Of course, there may be a technical error or misinterpretation, but not in the general cases mentioned above.

I personally like to base most of the decisions I make in life on bro science.

 

[Robbo99999]

Disagreed.
Firstly, Measurments gave you only basic idea if device is good or not overall technically. For example SMS HO200 amp measured better that yamaha pc2002, but sounded worse in all aspects worse in the same setup. So, its false measurmets/lie, mayby device fault, but cant say it was that case at all.
Secondly K9(pro) is great device as EM5 in terms of sound quality by overall people reviews same level of quality. Before EM5 I had topping d70s, so they are the same except topping a tiny bit more accurate/detailed at high spectrum, but tonally not that pleasant as EM5. EM was having a bit more bass (a tiny bit more/"boomy effect"), it was better for my setup.
Usually K9 pro used selling for 600$ or so. For 330$ K9 is very good deal and if you wont like it, you could sell it easily.
About measurments again, for example K371 is very close to harman curve, better than most Dan Clarks, does it mean it will sound better? No. If you will ask "what better" ask 10+ people/read reviews and make overall rate. That would be statistics.
If something play loud or even have good SINAD it doesnt mean it will please you at all. Allways look at quality through listening and overall people experiences and comparsions. The more the better.
Thirdly, I have not very costly setup. I would say medicore+, but any EQ through Roon, APO, passive preamps or just any volume knob will degrade sound quality.
Iam really surprised that people with years of music experince and so on even advise EQ. (btw havent tested DSP plugins, but if physical volume degrades sound, why should try.)

Each amp has its own characteristics/"sound character". So, you need to combine DAC/Amp/Headphone strong and weak points to compensate each other.
For example Some vintage SONY ES770/333 or their top version 555 will make sound very dense, soft and iridescent sound, but with distinct details at high. You wont find it in graphs I guess. Also you wont find anything similar like this series almost certain. Its uniqe character.
Arya Stealth, Edition XS, HD650 (if you dont mind sound will have some veil), but they are cheapest at used market. r70x if you dont like HD600/650 "veil" and want sound go stright in your head, without any "space" between you and music.

Good amps of top line where allways very costly. Thats why vintage is good cohoice if in good visual/internal condition. They will play as modern ones in terms of quality. Difference is too low, except price will be 2-10x more.
All modern amps Ive heard where poor. So would not recommend any, except cheap price range tier.

Ha, I was almost gonna stop reading your post after the few sentences as I knew where it was going, but I did read it to the end this time! None of that is worth discussing, it's been done to death a million times here on ASR and it's the kind of discussion that belongs in those other two dumping ground threads that such arguments get tossed out to. This is ASR, if you've spent a bit of time on here then you wouldn't be saying what you are, or maybe that's just what you believe despite having read a load of stuff here on ASR - either way though I'm not gonna bother with this type of discussion that has been done to death a million times before. If you're just new, then just take a good read around here on ASR & go from there, but I'm not having this discussion with you.

 

[AustreV]

Swapping equipment and software under sighted and most likely not level-matched conditions is exactly the opposite of a scientific approach to evaluate percepted differences in signal quality. You might read something about proper ABX testing before you make claims like this.....

They where done in "level-matched" conditions. If you change only 1 element of the chain at once its proper test and most accurate approach. You dont need "blind test" every time, but Iam sure I could pass it easily. Belive it or not. At least in those test Ive done. If the result of exact test and same test in a bit different enviroment for you "feels" the same in different day and time, it is most likely "valid" and "true" for you.

 

[AustreV]

Ha, I was almost gonna stop reading your post after the few sentences as I knew where it was going, but I did read it to the end this time! None of that is worth discussing, it's been done to death a million times here on ASR and it's the kind of discussion that belongs in those other two dumping ground threads that such arguments get tossed out to. This is ASR, if you've spent a bit of time on here then you wouldn't be saying what you are, or maybe that's just what you believe despite having read a load of stuff here on ASR - either way though I'm not gonna bother with this type of discussion that has been done to death a million times before. If you're just new, then just take a good read around here on ASR & go from there, but I'm not having this discussion with you.

Sure. Comfortable position. But already wasted a lot of symbols.
Iam not here to fit your position. I did AB testing in same enviroment/chain. Ive got ears as basic tool and measurments done by manufacturers who released products. Its enough to get basic idea in those devices differences. Forum where created to discuss and support arguments and positions, like it or not.
PS: 7k messages and using Sound blaster G6 in home setup. Thats real deal. Hope you will try some serious audio gear too to understand my post above, to be able to hear differences.

 

[oleg87]

Sure. Comfortable position. But already wasted a lot of symbols.
Iam not here to fit your position. I did AB testing in same enviroment/chain. Ive got ears as basic tool and measurments done by manufacturers who released products. Its enough to get basic idea in those devices differences. Forum where created to discuss and support arguments and positions, like it or not.

And on this forum, we are going to keep pointing out that your methodology is bogus and your conclusions meaningless. If you want a place to post subjectivist nonsense, head-fi is that way -->

 

[AustreV]

And on this forum, we are going to keep pointing out that your methodology is bogus and your conclusions meaningless.

It's just your opinion. (that AB testing is "bogus") Dont talk for everyone (at least for each men on this forum).

 

[Grotti]

They where done in "level-matched" conditions. If you change only 1 element of the chain at once its proper test and most accurate approach. You dont need "blind test" every time, but Iam sure I could pass it easily. Belive it or not. At least in those test Ive done. If the result of exact test and same test in a bit different enviroment for you "feels" the same in different day and time, it is most likely "valid" and "true" for you.

OK, so the outcome of your testing is SUBJECTIVELY valid for you. Nothing wrong with that. But as long as you have no OBJECTIVE proof, it is all just anecdotal. You can pass a blind ABX test easily? If you could prove this claim we have something to talk about.

 

[AustreV]

Sorry for not providing test measurements, because they seemed subjectively unambiguous and consistently reproducible to me.

 

[MAB]

They where done in "level-matched" conditions. If you change only 1 element of the chain at once its proper test and most accurate approach. You dont need "blind test" every time, but Iam sure I could pass it easily. Belive it or not. At least in those test Ive done. If the result of exact test and same test in a bit different enviroment for you "feels" the same in different day and time, it is most likely "valid" and "true" for you.

If your ears were measuring devices (they are not), this approach would work.

How are you sure you can pass a blind level-matched test 'easily'? Lot's of people claim 'easy' identification, but fail to discern when actually asked to show they can identify these perceived "night and day" perceived differences without looking at the gear.

 

[Jimbob54]

Can we keep this thread to matters relating to either the RME or possible substitutes please. I may already have to get the broom out.

Take generic arguments about measurements, subjective testing etc to the measurements thread. Thanks.

 

[MAB]

Sorry for not providing test measurements, because they seemed subjectively unambiguous and consistently reproducible to me.

Yes, this is how $50k cables get sold, the customer really hears night and day differences, even though there is not a change in the sound. It is really quite dramatic. how these things get sold, quite like a carnival, with magic and mentalists. In a blind test, no way on Earth to tell the difference, even if we had bat ears.

 

[AustreV]

Yes, this is how $50k cables get sold, the customer really hears night and day differences, even though there is not a change in the sound. It is really quite dramatic. how these things get sold, quite like a carnival, with magic and mentalists. In a blind test, no way on Earth to tell the difference, even if we had bat ears.

No, this example is wrong. I was talking about devices and their specs and result. Most of cases fancy "gold" cables and so on have not enough technical information to get proper results after and in testing itself. So this example is "off". Even manafactuers do not measure cabels as percise as any other gear. So you will have only basic technical information that can be used in these cases. Only measurments. And yes some subjective feelings of even bad measurments of those cables may take role.
But I was talking about "obvious cases" where every aspect in sound is worse in same chain.
Its rarely can be "brain error". Or some other psychological effect. But for sure there will be people who as in any case in life measurments. I can understand that.

 

[Jimbob54]

More delights garnered from elsewhere....

 

[Robbo99999]

Sure. Comfortable position. But already wasted a lot of symbols.
Iam not here to fit your position. I did AB testing in same enviroment/chain. Ive got ears as basic tool and measurments done by manufacturers who released products. Its enough to get basic idea in those devices differences. Forum where created to discuss and support arguments and positions, like it or not.
PS: 7k messages and using Sound blaster G6 in home setup. Thats real deal. Hope you will try some serious audio gear too to understand my post above, to be able to hear differences.

(Well it's now in the right thread, so thanks to the admins for moving it!)

 

[ahofer]

Firstly, Measurments gave you only basic idea if device is good or not overall technically. For example SMS HO200 amp measured better that yamaha pc2002, but sounded worse in all aspects worse in the same setup. So, its false measurmets/lie, mayby device fault,

You are missing several of the most likely explanations, as well as some letters.