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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

General FYI. Member : Highend-knud

Was a returning Troll who has created 6 separate shadow accounts to come here and Troll the Membership. We should feel Honored that this person has put in so much effort to come here and try to stir the pot. I had the “Honor” of Spam Closing his 6th shadow account just moments ago. For those of you trying to engage in honest and genuine discussion with “Highend-knud”. Know that he will not be responding. At least not under this username. Based on his past efforts he might try again under a new username. It reminds me of a game “Whack a Troll”…Happy Sunday Gentlemen. ;)
Any thought on giving him an account, and having it labeled as a Troll? Might even be fun if you do this with all multi-account users. Start a thread, and only have posts from known trolls in it.
 
Any thought on giving him an account, and having it labeled as a Troll? Might even be fun if you do this with all multi-account users. Start a thread, and only have posts from known trolls in it.
That’s a great idea! My initial thoughts are that we might not be able to contain what threads they could access and I don’t believe we have the capability to change their usernames…However, if we can contain them to just 1 or 2 threads, Amir would have to create a new account “Tag” which is complicated and not something Amir likes to do if he can avoid it. But my initial reaction to your post was that’s an awesome idea!

@amirm is there any way we could do something like this? I hate to bother you but damn…..:cool:
 
General FYI. Member : Highend-knud

Was a returning Troll who has created 6 separate shadow accounts to come here and Troll the Membership. We should feel Honored that this person has put in so much effort to come here and try to stir the pot. I had the “Honor” of Spam Closing his 6th shadow account just moments ago. For those of you trying to engage in honest and genuine discussion with “Highend-knud”. Know that he will not be responding. At least not under this username. Based on his past efforts he might try again under a new username. It reminds me of a game “Whack a Troll”…Happy Sunday Gentlemen. ;)
Excuse me by my ignorance, but what exactly is a Troll?

I mean, is someone with some comercial interest to create conflicts or just for amusement? Or both can be considered Trolls?
 
Excuse me by my ignorance, but what exactly is a Troll?

I mean, is someone with some comercial interest to create conflicts or just for amusement? Or both can be considered Trolls?
"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, a newsgroup, forum, chat room, online video game, or blog, with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception."

I think this definition is pretty good. They come here trying to engage in posting which is not genuine. They want to create controversy. It is not clear what they hope to gain to me. Certainly someone who simply comes here to post disagreement in general with ASR reviews and measurements, who makes multiple accounts after being banned for good reason are not here for fruitful exchanges of ideas.
 
"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, a newsgroup, forum, chat room, online video game, or blog, with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception."

I think this definition is pretty good. They come here trying to engage in posting which is not genuine. They want to create controversy. It is not clear what they hope to gain to me. Certainly someone who simply comes here to post disagreement in general with ASR reviews and measurements, who makes multiple accounts after being banned for good reason are not here for fruitful exchanges of ideas.
Ello... :D You used black text and on the black background option the black text cannot be seen properly.
 
"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, a newsgroup, forum, chat room, online video game, or blog, with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others' perception."

I think this definition is pretty good. They come here trying to engage in posting which is not genuine. They want to create controversy. It is not clear what they hope to gain to me. Certainly someone who simply comes here to post disagreement in general with ASR reviews and measurements, who makes multiple accounts after being banned for good reason are not here for fruitful exchanges of ideas.
He or she didn’t participated on a true conversation, were only long messages probably pre-redacted. Probably copied and pasted the same stuff many times.

Perhaps is one of the ways to distinguish with true disagreement: negative to argue as you mentioned
 
Excuse me by my ignorance, but what exactly is a Troll?

I mean, is someone with some comercial interest to create conflicts or just for amusement? Or both can be considered Trolls?
Yes. Bottom line is are they here in good faith or are they here for other reasons? Our team of Professional “Troll” Hunters have honed their skills over hundreds and maybe thousands of Posts and can spot a New Troll from 3000 meters. We get lots of hater’s because Amir has zero problem calling a $10K DAC a steaming pile of CaCa. People (not members) who have had a large helping of (Name the Brand) Koolaid and bought two and swear that the vail was lifted and the Performers leapt from the DAC right into the room it sounded so real…So, they get upset about Amir declaring the device is a “Headless” fail Panther. They come here to school us and defend their purchase decisions. It’s an endless stream of this. Every time Amir reviews an expensive DAC or Amp we know the Trolls aren’t far behind. It’s a thing here. Amir fails a pretty large majority of kit tested here. So, we’re never short of foot traffic. A very precious few learn something and decide to trust data and engineering over flashy advertising. Those few stay. The rest, well don’t! :cool:
 
Yes. Bottom line is are they here in good faith or are they here for other reasons? Our team of Professional “Troll” Hunters have honed their skills over hundreds and maybe thousands of Posts and can spot a New Troll from 3000 meters. We get lots of hater’s because Amir has zero problem calling a $10K DAC a steaming pile of CaCa. People (not members) who have had a large helping of (Name the Brand) Koolaid and bought two and swear that the vail was lifted and the Performers leapt from the DAC right into the room it sounded so real…So, they get upset about Amir declaring the device is a “Headless” fail Panther. They come here to school us and defend their purchase decisions. It’s an endless stream of this. Every time Amir reviews an expensive DAC or Amp we know the Trolls aren’t far behind. It’s a thing here. Amir fails a pretty large majority of kit tested here. So, we’re never short of foot traffic. A very precious few learn something and decide to trust data and engineering over flashy advertising. Those few stay. The rest, well don’t! :cool:
I better understand the intensity of a thread where I participated (“how can a DAC which was found audible transparent can have sound signature?”)

I was eventually considered a troll because my engagement to “trust my ears” and some philosophical ideas about limits of science that were out of context, but I felt so strongly attacked that I used all resources.

Looking back to my arguments I am ashamed :oops:

Fortunately I’m among those who learned something and I admire the tenacity to construct solid measurements despite the strong comercial influence
 
but I felt so strongly attacked that I used all resources.
Yeah, we need to work on our approach some. We know that as a group. It’s a work in progress.
Looking back to my arguments I am ashamed :oops:
A paradigm shift is a complicated process and thankfully one of our members was able to say something that was just enough to get you to question your beliefs. When you are here long enough and engage in enough of these types of conversations it gets really hard to maintain your composure and will to stay in the fight.
Fortunately I’m among those who learned something and I admire the tenacity to construct solid measurements despite the strong comercial influence
We are all fortunate that you decided to stay and learn with us. As a new Donor Member. Thank you for staying and giving this science stuff a chance to stick. We are happy you stayed and became a member of our community. Happy Sunday Sir! :cool:
 
We are all fortunate that you decided to stay and learn with us. As a new Donor Member. Thank you for staying and giving this science stuff a chance to stick. We are happy you stayed and became a member of our community. Happy Sunday Sir! :cool:

here here.
 
Electronic knowledge does not help me in the above cases to explain what I hear, the only thing I can use my knowledge for is to be 100% sure that I should not hear the differences I hear on cables for example, but apparently I do anyway even in the blind test.
So you think there are no physical explanations for what you hear, that something is missing in our electronics knowledge? We can communicate with voyager2 19 billion km away (thats 17 light hours) and detect gravity waves but audio electronics are still a mystery?
Furthermore, in my opinion, there are no measurements for much of what we hear and emphasise when we listen and evaluate hifi. Something I elaborated on in my post.
What exactly can't we measure?
 
I am not a scientist and I am sure that the test does not follow all the rules, I am the member you are looking for who wants to discuss hifi and contribute with experiences.
This is not audioexperiencereview. There are plenty of other places for that.
I have been involved in so many tests that I am 100% convinced that there are sound differences that cannot be confirmed with theory and measurement. I have given examples, try it.
You’ve given us nothing of substance. “Because I say so” isn’t very convincing around here..
 
It does not take much to experience something mysterious, connect a 2nF and 4.7uF in parallel, if the 2nF is of a different type, you will find that it can give the overall sound a different sound signature, or change a coupling or decoupling capacitor or a crossover capacitor it can also give a different sound signature, I would say that as a diy practitioner it is very difficult not to hear and detect sound differences that should not be possible according to theory.

Lets take this example.
at 100Hz: 4.7uF = 340ohm
at 100Hz: 2nF = 800k

Lets put these in parallel where would the majority of the current flow through ?
0.04% of the current flows through the 2nF, 99.96% flows through the 4.7uF the same ratio at all frequencies.
How would that change tonality when this ratio goes all the way above the audible range ?
100kHz, 4.7uF = 0.34ohm
100kHz, 2nF = 796ohm

Now.... in parallel as a decoupling cap there is something different going on and the 2nF could help with stability of the power supply with fast components (MHz region).
Will it change tonality ?
 
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I am not a scientist and I am sure that the test does not follow all the rules, I am the member you are looking for who wants to discuss hifi and contribute with experiences.

I have been involved in so many tests that I am 100% convinced that there are sound differences that cannot be confirmed with theory and measurement. I have given examples, try it.
A blind test that dosnt "follow all the rules" dosnt mean much. Hifi "experiences" are almost worthless when there's little agreement, everyone has there own.
 
I am not a scientist and I am sure that the test does not follow all the rules, I am the member you are looking for who wants to discuss hifi and contribute with experiences.

I have been involved in so many tests that I am 100% convinced that there are sound differences that cannot be confirmed with theory and measurement. I have given examples, try it.
If you haven't blind-tested it then no-one is going to take your claim seriously.

I don't doubt you perceive these difference, but the difference isn't necessarily real. I know a couple of audio designer EEs who think exactly the same as you, but they never blind-tested it either.
 
I am not a scientist and I am sure that the test does not follow all the rules, I am the member you are looking for who wants to discuss hifi and contribute with experiences.

I have been involved in so many tests that I am 100% convinced that there are sound differences that cannot be confirmed with theory and measurement. I have given examples, try it.
During your blind tests don't you think a perfect cable etc would not impart any coloration into the signal?
How do you know what is actually the purest and better device?
 
As someone who uses and respects well executed tests (as in ASR) and who puts the premium on fairly represented data, I have a question, if possibly a naive one. As I understand it, the human ear can detect and decipher "useful" information (such as speech) well below the noise floor. I also believe that most of us instinctively assume that all the goodness (useful program material) in a test lives solely "above the line*" and that everything below the line can be safely ignored. I know I tend to. But, is it possible that one source of the tension between the objective absolutist and the moderate subjectivist can be found lurking in the space below the line - in the quality of the noise (or distortion products?) and the means employed by the designer to lower the line. An obvious examples in the distortion domain: given two amplifiers with identical THD results, which one would likely sound better, the one with predominantly odd harmonic distortions or the one with mostly even harmonics? Which is better in a stressed output stage, hard clipping or compression? Just a thought, not a credo.

* substitute the relevant axis as necessary or typical
 
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