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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

amirm said:
Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers have created certain house sound for each equipment which your measurements don't show.

11. Your measurements are only at one frequency. You need to also measure X, Y and Z like impulse response, slew rate, etc., etc.

12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.

On and on...

I have had to answer these so many times that I thought it is time to stop having them go into every review as they are not product specific. From here on, any such questions should be posted here. Answers will be given in this thread and simply referenced in future challenges in other threads.

@AdamG247 and @BDWoody, please direct any future posts in review threads to here and not allow discussions there.

Thanks. You all are free to discuss this topic, provide answers, argue, whatever, in this thread. :)
Click to expand...
Let's quote the starting message of the thread, especially myself interested in point 1.

The chain is as long as a year of hunger, and I haven't really found the answers to the following, if there is one: What is the consensus, or is there such a thing (in ASR), regarding the measurement results of the speakers vs. the heard and experienced sound quality.
Looking at individual posts, at least some seem to feel that the measurements of the speakers are a sufficient criterion for the purchase?

I have no objection to this, everyone has their own way.
But this is still (thank God) a forum oriented to the most objective and best possible information.
I guess this also includes "measurments under development" part.

Unfortunately, I do not have enough technical background to evaluate what and how should be developed when evaluating speakers in order to achieve the best possible result. However, the current state is hardly the "final answer"? Do the members have any thoughts on this, which attributes should (if possible) be added to the measurements?

From my own experience, the correlation between measurement results and what is experienced is not necessarily one to one. I am aware of the importance of psychoacoustics and room modes etc., and of course I am not immune to the effects of the former.

Some kind of "external" support for my idea about the relative difficulty of speakers for evaluation based only on measurement results --> Genelec company's process, in product development, which I know relatively well. In addition to measurements, it includes numerous steps in which listening plays its own important part.

And, if memory serves, in one of ASR's speaker tests mr. Majidimehr estimates that the weighting measurement results are in the order of 70% of the perceived sound quality. Then everything else... (naturally I understood that more as a rough estimate than as an exact figure).
Unfortunately, I don't remember in which test this happened.
And to be more specific, the purpose here is not to put any words in the forum host's mouth.
(My sincere apologies if the memory image I presented did not match the text from. mr. Majidimehr).

My personal point is that unlike other devices in my opinion, based on measurements alone, I would not buy the speakers.

However, when making a selection in possible choices, the measurement results are the criterion number 1, I do narrow down the options :).
 
I can’t see your attachments, sorry too much Kenneth Williams as a child.

Keith
 
eric tee said:
From my own experience, the correlation between measurement results and what is experienced is not necessarily one to one. I am aware of the importance of psychoacoustics and room modes etc., and of course I am not immune to the effects of the former.
Click to expand...
No-one - I don't think - is claiming that it's 'one to one'. - As someone who does buy speakers just on measurements I don't often make mistakes even with not being any kind of expert. But you have to know what you like and know how that correlates. It's not an exact science. As long as I get in the ballpark odds are I'll be happy.

Added to this, as long as the speaker is fundamentally good in its measurements, I can EQ it to fine tune to my taste.

If it's fundamentally bad there's nothing that can be done, it's just going to ruin a lot of recordings and probably be difficult to place in the room to sound half-way decent except from one spot.

Ideally I'd home demo for a few weeks as well - but that's not often possible or even practical.
 
Mart68 said:
No-one - I don't think - is claiming that it's 'one to one'. - As someone who does buy speakers just on measurements I don't often make mistakes even with not being any kind of expert. But you have to know what you like and know how that correlates. It's not an exact science. As long as I get in the ballpark odds are I'll be happy.

Added to this, as long as the speaker is fundamentally good in its measurements, I can EQ it to fine tune to my taste.

If it's fundamentally bad there's nothing that can be done, it's just going to ruin a lot of recordings and probably be difficult to place in the room to sound half-way decent except from one spot.

Ideally I'd home demo for a few weeks as well - but that's not often possible or even practical.
Click to expand...
I should have been more precise, in the expression corrected to --> relatively far from "one to one".

I agree with that ideal situation. Of course, for very practical reasons, the possibilities for this are usually very limited. Especially if the speakers produce a significantly different form of sound quality than what you are used to.

Adaptation, including psychoacoustic. It usually takes some time to get get used to.

Also due to other things than the measurement, outside the absolute sense (interpretation of the brain), as well as a varying set of physical differences --> possible hearing loss/differences in individuals, individual structure of the ear, etc...

... to me, it seems to be self-evident that it is not even theoretically possible to take such variables into account in the evaluations through ASR or any other forum. I don't think that is the claim of the idea behind this forum or "mission".

The most interesting part in an objective (measurable) part of this forum. Is to what extent development steps could be taken here. I would love to hear your opinions on this. I'm also open to the idea that what is meaningfully measurable in terms of speakers. can already be measured.
 
eric tee said:
My personal point is that unlike other devices in my opinion, based on measurements alone, I would not buy the speakers.

However, when making a selection in possible choices, the measurement results are the criterion number 1, I do narrow down the options :).
Click to expand...

I see that as perfectly reasonable. I operate a bit differently, but I think everyone does.

I view this hobby as having three not-necessarily-distinct elements:

1) Gearheads. These people revel in the acquisition of equipment, kinda like Pokemon in audio. They compare specs ad infinitum.
2) Escapists. Some people have a hobby to escape reality. They hate specs, numbers, charts and graphs. They want to relax and fantasize.
3) Music Lovers. These people want to hear music, whether on a radio, a stereo or in live performances. Equipment is entirely secondary.

Many of us have various portions of all three elements in us. That makes things extremely difficult interesting.:)

Jim
 
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Jim Taylor said:
I see that as perfectly reasonable. I operate a bit differently, but I think everyone does.

I view this hobby as having three not-necessarily-distinct elements:

1) Gearheads. These people revel in the acquisition of equipment, kinda like Pokemon in audio. They compare specs ad infinitum.
2) Escapists. Some people have a hobby to escape reality. They hate specs, numbers, charts and graphs. They want to relax and fantasize.
3) Music Lovers. These people want to hear music, whether on a radio, a stereo or in live performances. Equipment is entirely secondary.

Many of us have various portions of all three elements in us. That makes things extremely difficult interesting.:)

Jim
Click to expand...
Using your chart for evaluation :), I've gone from a per se happy 80's and clear #1, to the nowadays sort of mix #1 and #3 .

And this has been very nice and liberating journey.

Big piles of various hardware. Well replaced in their current form with a modest lineup.

Letting go of the hunt for perfection, at least in my case, has led to a more enjoyable experience of music.
 
eric tee said:
Letting go of the hunt for perfection, at least in my case, has led to a more enjoyable experience of music.
Click to expand...
Realizing how simple it was to obtain ‘audibly transparent’, or practical perfection, in electronics was revolutionary for me. Realizing how good a speaker with an excellent spinorama sounds was another.
 
Descartes said:
What do you think of this?

True or just rubbish?

www.headphonesty.com

Scientific Study Claims to Prove That Expensive Cables Do Matter in Sound Quality

But the cable debate still isn't over.
www.headphonesty.com www.headphonesty.com
Click to expand...
Seems to be basic BS as presenting something that while might be correct but has no nothing do with actual audible differences.

Question remains, why invent this mumbo jumbo when you can get what you want with simple blind test done with the same effort. Or one could refer to the credible blind tests already done, which must be numerous as this "debate" has been going on for years and doesn't seem to stop. Oh, there aren't any, what a shame. Quantum mechanics angle next?
 
Descartes said:
What do you think of this?

True or just rubbish?

www.headphonesty.com

Scientific Study Claims to Prove That Expensive Cables Do Matter in Sound Quality

But the cable debate still isn't over.
www.headphonesty.com www.headphonesty.com
Click to expand...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Analysis of Paper on Measurements of RCA Cables by Kunchur (Video)

I keep getting asked to address the paper by professor Kunchur on his latest paper as promoted by a number of youtubers. There, he claims to have found correlated measurements for why different cable "grades" make an audible difference. So I put together a presentation detailing his testing...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
 
Speakers are unique in their interaction with the room. Unless measurements are taken, at YOUR listening position, in YOUR room, they won't be terribly accurate. That is even before we look into personal preference in frequency response. There is some interaction between the speaker and the amp in the low octaves but that pales in comparison to the room. Still, speaker measurements taken in isolation are indicative, not absolute.
 
DonR said:
speaker measurements taken in isolation are indicative, not absolute.
Click to expand...
Yep, even more so for headphone measurements.. Indicative at best, not conclusive. People tend to forget that because of the measurements of DACs, amps, cables etc.

Electronics, however, totally different ballgame and when the required measurements are done correctly are conclusive.
 
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