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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Axo1989

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You guys are funny trying to claim that a Pioneer receiver competes with the likes of Levinson or other high end components. Keep telling yourselves that, a lie repeated enough times becomes truth to many.

Kind of reminds me of a guy I knew who told me his Corvette was just as good as a Ferrari, because it went from zero to sixty as fast. Having owned and driven both, he had no idea what he was talking about, and until you experience the visceral feeling of being in such a vehicle (I’m talking about the Ferrari’s), the feedback the car gives, the noises it produces, the way the transmission shifts up and down, and the feelings and emotions it illicites, the specs being similar mean nothing.

It’s the reason why people are willing to pay a premium for a Ferrari over a Corvette. It’s not that the Corvette is a bad car, it’s not, but it’s also not a Ferrari.

You can’t sit here and tell me just because the specs are the same, that the driving experience is, because it’s not. So until you experience both, you shouldn’t be content parroting what someone else says or tested, Go experience it yourself, or at least keep an open mind that other’s may be able to sonically notice or hear a difference that you can’t.

Your rhetoric suggest that people paying more money for quality products is foolish, which is frankly insulting. If you can’t afford higher end products or don’t find value in them, that’s one thing, and no one should look down on you for that, however, people are not foolish for paying a premium for something they see, hear or feel is of value.

You can sit here and tell me that $1,000 speakers are just as good as a set of Wilson’s or Focals that cost thousands more. I’ve owned dozens of speakers, amps, pre-amps, and other gear over the last 3 decades. Some products and manufacturers made a major difference in my systems and others did not. Typically however, engineering costs money, and companies who legitimately blend scientific engineering with human testing (not just computer measurements) produce the best products and results.

We can go round and round on this topic and discussion and it seems I’m outnumbered, will be accosted by some and viewed as foolish for being willing to spend money on what I deem are quality products, since many here in the forum want to follow someone else’s measurement readings. That’s fine. If you are happy basing all your purchase decisions on someone else’s measurements and specs, God bless. It’s your right.

All I know is that I almost didn’t purchase the M-scaler initially because of Amir’s review and this forum. Thankfully, I also read many comments and reviews of people who actually listened to it in their systems, had the resources to purchase it, and decided to give it a go, I’m just glad I did.

To each is own.

I'm hoping you'll continue on ASR, become a Genelec convert and ship your Scala Utopia to me.
 
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MAB

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You guys are funny trying to claim that a Pioneer receiver competes with the likes of Levinson or other high end components. Keep telling yourselves that, a lie repeated enough times becomes truth to many.

Kind of reminds me of a guy I knew who told me his Corvette was just as good as a Ferrari, because it went from zero to sixty as fast. Having owned and driven both, he had no idea what he was talking about, and until you experience the visceral feeling of being in such a vehicle (I’m talking about the Ferrari’s), the feedback the car gives, the noises it produces, the way the transmission shifts up and down, and the feelings and emotions it illicites, the specs being similar mean nothing.

It’s the reason why people are willing to pay a premium for a Ferrari over a Corvette. It’s not that the Corvette is a bad car, it’s not, but it’s also not a Ferrari.

You can’t sit here and tell me just because the specs are the same, that the driving experience is, because it’s not. So until you experience both, you shouldn’t be content parroting what someone else says or tested, Go experience it yourself, or at least keep an open mind that other’s may be able to sonically notice or hear a difference that you can’t.

Your rhetoric suggest that people paying more money for quality products is foolish, which is frankly insulting. If you can’t afford higher end products or don’t find value in them, that’s one thing, and no one should look down on you for that, however, people are not foolish for paying a premium for something they see, hear or feel is of value.

You can sit here and tell me that $1,000 speakers are just as good as a set of Wilson’s or Focals that cost thousands more. I’ve owned dozens of speakers, amps, pre-amps, and other gear over the last 3 decades. Some products and manufacturers made a major difference in my systems and others did not. Typically however, engineering costs money, and companies who legitimately blend scientific engineering with human testing (not just computer measurements) produce the best products and results.

We can go round and round on this topic and discussion and it seems I’m outnumbered, will be accosted by some and viewed as foolish for being willing to spend money on what I deem are quality products, since many here in the forum want to follow someone else’s measurement readings. That’s fine. If you are happy basing all your purchase decisions on someone else’s measurements and specs, God bless. It’s your right.

All I know is that I almost didn’t purchase the M-scaler initially because of Amir’s review and this forum. Thankfully, I also read many comments and reviews of people who actually listened to it in their systems, had the resources to purchase it, and decided to give it a go, I’m just glad I did.

To each is own.
Apologies, I neglected to link the report!
My bad, I just attached it.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-same-david-l-clark-ian-g-masters-pdf.287426/
It's quite famous. I was working at a boutique shop that sold Levinson when this came out. This was not surprising.
 

Attachments

  • Do All AMps Sound The Same David L Clark Ian G Masters.pdf
    3.8 MB · Views: 30

ObjectiveSubjectivist

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I was the same. I used to have Dave and Mscaler. I heard everything what people are saying. Deeper wider etc.
Everything changed when I did proper listening tests (benchmark hpa4 was very helpful with that)
 

IAtaman

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Rob Watts knows what he’s doing
That I very much agree.

People shrug of the placebo, but I think that is a mistake. I am sure I am not to first one to argue that in the forum, but I think placebo can be a strong cure if applied properly. If you take a pill that has only sugar in it, and it makes your headache disappear, I'd say the pill worked. Same for Rob Watt's products really; if you plug in an M-Scaler to your chain, and suddenly everything sounds better, wider and more immersive, well good for you! But please, please, please do not come here and claim there is more than sugar in the pill because it cured your headache, and that we can not see it because we can not measure everything and there is so much we don't know about the universe and and all that. Just enjoy your improved music experience as Rob is enjoying your money.
 
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nawfal07

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Yep, I wanted to try. That is better than spending time searching what people say and do

What? Searching? Did you even read my post? I was catching up with the thread the last few pages. Having a bad day?
 

Werther44210

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I have tried different routes from the A6 to my Marantz AV Receiver (which I love). My experience:

A6 RCA (DAC) —> Marantz 7.1CH IN

I get full sound of A6. I clearly notice the DAC (ES9038). Sound is VERY clean, punchy, big separation of instruments. On the other hand sometimes is a bit incisive/bright, not musical

A6 HDMI —> Marantz HDMI (DAC)

I get full sound of Marantz DAC, it sounds as usual. Maybe a bit more defined vs HEOS. It has less punch and detail but more warmth, sweetness, as it is not separating instruments so much, music is more fluid, more joint, musical. I can enable room correction if I want

A6 RCA (DAC) —> Marantz CD IN (DAC)

I am summing DACs. The analog input from the A6 is converted to digital in the Marantz and then to analog. Tone wise is good, I am getting the punch and detail of the A6 DAC plus the warmth and musicality of the Marantz DAC. However many times, especially on voices it sounds too processed, and bass loses depth


At the end I have decided to keep routes 1 and 2, and depending on my mood I hear A6 DAC or Marantz DAC. Both are great, natural, it changes only the sound signature. For short listening sessions I use 1, and for long sessions or multichannel, I use 2. In summary, VERY HAPPY

If someday I have to renew my AV, I will have hard times finding one with pure analog inputs (7.1CH IN)
Hi @Fofocho,

Thank you for your feedback on the different listening modes with a Marantz AV amplifier, I use the DMP A6 on the multichannel part like you on a Denon 8500 HA:
- the A6 RCA (DAC) interconnection —> HC amplifier

I agree the full sound of the A6. I clearly notice the DAC (ES9038). The sound is VERY clean, punchy, big separation of instruments. the somewhat incisive/bright side characteristic of the DMP emerges, it is linear and neutral. I improved the result by recently adding an Audiophonic purifi HP-S-400 amp which attenuates this aspect, a lot of sweetness in the treble, a clear improvement...
- the A6 HDMI interconnection —> HC amplifier (DAC)
100% agree with you, we feel the sound of the DAC of the HC amp, the definition is a little better I think, the DMP A6 is a very efficient player in transporting digital signals without using its DAC, Marantz is more fluid than Denon which is more neutral with light warmth less less than Marantz and more detailed, we find the sound signature of our HC amps.

I don't use my CD player with the HC amp, your feedback seems coherent to me.

The HDMI socket on the Eversolo is a real plus because we don't find it on other streamers, it's a very good network player to use on a multichannel amplifier just like a Hi-Fi amplifier....
 

Purité Audio

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DMP has flat frequency response Purifi amps have flat frequency response flar fr+ flat fr = flat fr.
Imagination is very powerful.
Keith
 

Werther44210

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DMP has flat frequency response Purifi amps have flat frequency response flar fr+ flat fr = flat fr.
Imagination is very powerful.
Keith
Hello Keith,

Perhaps imagination I admit, nevertheless, very good amp, very neutral, faithfully reproduces the music, compared to the Nuprime MCX that I sold, clearly superior for a lower price, I love this super clean reproduction ...
 

Fofocho

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Hi @Fofocho,

Thank you for your feedback on the different listening modes with a Marantz AV amplifier, I use the DMP A6 on the multichannel part like you on a Denon 8500 HA:
- the A6 RCA (DAC) interconnection —> HC amplifier

I agree the full sound of the A6. I clearly notice the DAC (ES9038). The sound is VERY clean, punchy, big separation of instruments. the somewhat incisive/bright side characteristic of the DMP emerges, it is linear and neutral. I improved the result by recently adding an Audiophonic purifi HP-S-400 amp which attenuates this aspect, a lot of sweetness in the treble, a clear improvement...
- the A6 HDMI interconnection —> HC amplifier (DAC)
100% agree with you, we feel the sound of the DAC of the HC amp, the definition is a little better I think, the DMP A6 is a very efficient player in transporting digital signals without using its DAC, Marantz is more fluid than Denon which is more neutral with light warmth less less than Marantz and more detailed, we find the sound signature of our HC amps.

I don't use my CD player with the HC amp, your feedback seems coherent to me.

The HDMI socket on the Eversolo is a real plus because we don't find it on other streamers, it's a very good network player to use on a multichannel amplifier just like a Hi-Fi amplifier....

I like the clarity and separation of A6 DAC, but I miss the musicality that the DAC of Marantz has, less detailed but more fluid/joint. It is like comparing instruments sounding separately vs all together
 

Purité Audio

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incisive/bright side characteristic of the DMP emerges, i
Flat response means neither incisive nor bright but just accurate to the source, I have found that readers tend to ‘parrot’ descriptions just like yours, and then they are repeated and repeated propagating a lie.
If your old amp/dac rolled off the top end ( doubtful in itself) then say that.
Keith
 

Fofocho

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Flat response means neither incisive nor bright but just accurate to the source, I have found that readers tend to ‘parrot’ descriptions just like yours, and then they are repeated and repeated propagating a lie.
If your old amp/dac rolled off the top end ( doubtful in itself) then say that.
Keith

In both scenarios Pre-amp is the same, power amplifier is the same. What changes here is just the DAC, and they sound different. The assessment "they are transparent" would imply that all DACs sound the same, and this is not the case
 

jammer76

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DMP has flat frequency response Purifi amps have flat frequency response flar fr+ flat fr = flat fr.
Imagination is very powerful.
Keith

I can confirm with my setup: DMP-A6 >> XLR >> NCX500 ==> ❤️❤️❤️
 

Purité Audio

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In both scenarios Pre-amp is the same, power amplifier is the same. What changes here is just the DAC, and they sound different. The assessment "they are transparent" would imply that all DACs sound the same, and this is not the case
Clearly ‘all’ dacs do not sound the same just look at any of the poor measuring dacs Amir has measured, but all properly engineered dacs with distortion below audibility will sound identical, the only difference perhaps being their choice of reconstruction filter.
Keith
 

Fofocho

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Clearly ‘all’ dacs do not sound the same just look at any of the poor measuring dacs Amir has measured, but all properly engineered dacs with distortion below audibility will sound identical, the only difference perhaps being their choice of reconstruction filter.
Keith

I will re-phrase: not all DACs with good measurements will sound the same. If that were the case, 90% of DACs would be a scam because we find $1000 DAC with good measurements and $100 DACs with good measurements, both above audible threshold

I notice differences in tone timbre, in soundstage. I do not think is so difficult to differentiate the bass of one DAC to another's, the sibilance, or the soundstage, for example
 

Purité Audio

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I will re-phrase: not all DACs with good measurements will sound the same. If that were the case, 90% of DACs would be a scam because we find $1000 DAC with good measurements and $100 DACs with good measurements, both above audible threshold

I notice differences in tone timbre, in soundstage. I do not think is so difficult to differentiate the bass of one DAC to another's, the sibilance, or the soundstage, for example
Couldn’t have put it better myself. ‘90%of all dacs would be a scam’.
Keith
 

Fofocho

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Couldn’t have put it better myself. ‘90%of all dacs would be a scam’.
Keith
So let's close this website. As all devices above 100db (e.g.) SINAD sound the same, this website could just publish the "good" (above 100db) and the "bad" (below 100db) and no comments allowed for the good ones because they are all the same

I think you have not tried different DACs?
 

Purité Audio

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No no I have never tried different dacs, perhaps I should do you think?
Keith
 
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I notice differences in tone timbre, in soundstage. I do not think is so difficult to differentiate the bass of one DAC to another's, the sibilance, or the soundstage, for example

Have you compared those DACs in a controlled double-blind test?


Jim
 
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