Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[voodooless]

Nothing is more reasonable than not claiming to know the unknowable (i.e. what the future will bring).

That’s not what this is thought. Nobody is making that claim. This is a question about how reasonable it is to assume that tomorrow some new discovery is made in audio by a valid listening test that cannot be trivially explained by the measurements we can already do?

If it’s reasonable, what would be the actual reason? Why tomorrow and not in the last 50 + years?

 

[SIY]

Nothing is more reasonable than not claiming to know the unknowable (i.e. what the future will bring).

Ah, Russell's Teapot. Nothing like the classics.

 

[Guettel]

That’s not what this is thought. Nobody is making that claim. This is a question about how reasonable it is to assume that tomorrow some new discovery is made in audio by a valid listening test that cannot be trivially explained by the measurements we can already do?

If it’s reasonable, what would be the actual reason? Why tomorrow and not in the last 50 + years?

Because new understanding and technology comes along every day and we learn new things we didn't know yesterday.

 

[Guettel]

Ah, Russell's Teapot. Nothing like the classics.

Ah, deflection. Nothing like the classics.

 

[VQR]

Ah, deflection. Nothing like the classics.

You could at least try to be an entertaining troll.

 

[voodooless]

Because new understanding and technology comes along every day and we learn new things we didn't know yesterday.

Okay, how much would you like to bet it will happen tomorrow then?

 

[fpitas]

The X Factor, guys. We won't know it until it's here.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I hear it is broken by a dragon and she is hiding in a garage somewhere.

I thought a Tesla ran over Russel's teapot and broke it. That Dragon is just somebody's imagination.

 

[Newman]

A person making a claim needs to provide evidence, a person questioning it.

Well hang on, you stated that it is "Exactly" true that "available measurements are unequal to the task of capturing everything about the sound of a unit (DAC)."

That person made a claim, but you didn't question it! Why not?

If you don't want to look like a blatant hypocrite, you need to explain why your last 13 posts in this thread are repeated demands for evidence, yet when someone posts the opposite claim with zero evidence, you say, "Exactly".

 

[blackdiamond]

Wouldn't anti surge protection cover your first item at a reasonable cost?

I won't say that I've ever heard a difference with components plugged into it vs. directly to the PS Audio outlet (if this post seems incomplete it's probably because the hoard with pitchforks have arrived), but the potential for an improvement was part of the thought process. It was an excellent Black Friday deal, so didn't set me back that much and feels more trustworthy for expensive equipment than the power strip that I use for my home theater setu...

 

[blackdiamond]

You could at least try to be an entertaining troll.

But then he'd be taking my role assuming that it's understood though yet unspoken...

 

[MAB]

I won't say that I've ever heard a difference with components plugged into it vs. directly to the PS Audio outlet (if this post seems incomplete it's probably because the hoard with pitchforks have arrived), but the potential for an improvement was part of the thought process. It was an excellent Black Friday deal, so didn't set me back that much and feels more trustworthy for expensive equipment than the power strip that I use for my home theater setu...

This is a totally reasonable statement. I really think you have a solid rationale.
I like to think I am a complete objectivist, but I do the peace-of-mind part too, and try to buy things I plan on retaining.
I still have several sets of super nice van den hul speaker cables from my days in sales, one is a bi-wire cable. They are beefy and satisfying. I can't hear the difference but so what??? The best parts about them are the flexible jacket and the terminations. I don't have cable-lifters though...
When I got rid of the ancient wiring in our house, I dropped several dedicated outlets for the hifi just because I could. I never seem to run into ground loop issues, no idea if it is the solid wiring, I will likely never know and that makes me happy.
I had a Sonic Frontiers SFL-3 preamp for cheap, and did all sorts of SE+ and volume control upgrades. In the end the only thing that made a difference was the filament regulator upgrade that Chris Johnson did, kept it from eating up tubes. Even with all that... after selling it the cost of ownership was maybe $100 per year. It made me very happy, and is likely making someone else happy now.
It doesn't keep me from facepalming on some people's idea of retro tube sound, or special bi-wiring tricks. But so long as people don't come here spouting stuff that would make Ohm roll in the grave, we're all good.

 

[voodooless]

This is a totally reasonable statement. I really think you have a solid rationale.

I really don’t think so. The same line of reasoning leads you to all kinds of nonsense. Why not buy into homeopathy? The potential health improvements are mind blowing!

 

[MAB]

I really don’t think so. The same line of reasoning leads you to all kinds of nonsense. Why not buy into homeopathy? The potential health improvements are mind blowing!

My personal example... I did enjoy that SFL-3. It certainly didn't objectively perform as well as other gear I have. But it was the center of a sprawling hifi and I harbored no illusions about what it was, and when it was time to sell my cost of ownership was really great. Side benefit: I am now more clear than ever on the BS behind tube-rolling
I am certainly not an audiophile purist, but I'm also hope I'm not an ideological objectivist. If someone bought gear or already owns gear that makes them happy and not evangelizing a flat-earth, this is good. And blackdiamond seems to be just chilling with some gear that you or I might not buy, but he got a great deal on. And he said he can't hear the difference. I really appreciate that honesty.

I see your point about the slippery slope of audio-mysticism. I have been a bit harsh on trolls lately. Maybe I am being too nice now, but so long as things aren't misrepresented and I'm not getting beaten up with their tube-fantasy... I am OK. Hope this makes sense...

 

[voodooless]

And blackdiamond seems to be just chilling with some gear that you or I might not buy, but he got a great deal on. And he said he can't hear the difference.

So how is that a great deal? Is homeopathy suddenly a great deal if it’s half price?

In this case it’s just a simple outlet obviously, and if it didn’t cost more than any other, pretend I didn’t say anything. At least you get a functional outlet

But, I’ve al once’s bought a piece of audiophile speaker wire (about 8m). I saw it at a fleemarket and it was like €5. When I found out it was like € 40/meter retail, I just took it out of spite. It’s a well made piece of speaker cable, but I also never had the illusion that it’s anything more than that.

 

[MAB]

So how is that a great deal? Is homeopathy suddenly a great deal if it’s half price?

I was trying to avoid a tit for tat.
I thought the poster was genuine when he said he couldn't hear a difference.
I have a hard time pillorying people for stuff they already own, so long as they don't misrepresent.
Maybe I am missing some inflammatory post he made earlier. If I did, I am just not reading enough.

 

[voodooless]

I thought the poster was genuine when he said he couldn't hear a difference.

I’m pretty sure he is. I have no issues with that part. It’s the apparent potential benefits as an argument for buying it I have issues with.

If that part was just irony, ignore I all I said about it

 

[MAB]

I’m pretty sure he is. I have no issues with that part. It’s the apartment potential benefits as an argument of buying it I have issues with.

If that part was just irony, ignore I all I said about it

I missed that, something I often do on this all or nothing thread!

Since you mentioned 'apartment' and that's a trigger word for me now... on April 1 I watched a few seconds of the Apartment Fog video, thought it was real, and got so pissed off I unloaded on someone who also thought it was real (person was speculating on insulation and floor coupling and other magic). And they apparently still think the fog is real. Thank god I finally figured out what day it was... My point is I have no idea at times....

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

I won't say that I've ever heard a difference with components plugged into it vs. directly to the PS Audio outlet (if this post seems incomplete it's probably because the hoard with pitchforks have arrived), but the potential for an improvement was part of the thought process. It was an excellent Black Friday deal, so didn't set me back that much and feels more trustworthy for expensive equipment than the power strip that I use for my home theater setu...

I was simply referring to protecting a precious hi-fi system. I really don't mind if you are a subjectivist. Or at least I might if you were spending really large amounts of money, unnecessarily. Which could be better spent on other things!
Even at that, it is your money.

 

[Guettel]

Well hang on, you stated that it is "Exactly" true that "available measurements are unequal to the task of capturing everything about the sound of a unit (DAC)."

That person made a claim, but you didn't question it! Why not?

If you don't want to look like a blatant hypocrite, you need to explain why your last 13 posts in this thread are repeated demands for evidence, yet when someone posts the opposite claim with zero evidence, you say, "Exactly".

You're right. For that particular claim, I didn't present the evidence (yet).

That does not mean you did.