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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

IPunchCholla

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Wait, you are doing and know of others doing controlled listening tests the show humans can detect differences that would change our fundamental understanding of psychoacoustics but you aren’t going to publish them? That’s kind of a jerk move.
 

Ricardus

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Yes, no blind tests etc, there are actually people who can profitably judge hifi without blind tests and achieve progress and correct ratings. Believe it or not
No, there aren't, unless they are an android.

Being born human means you have biases automatically.
 

Killingbeans

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The problem with this approach is that many of the sound differences that millions of hifi enthusiasts have heard, also in blind testing, including myself disappears, the evolution one experiences by modifying the same designs over time disappears.

Somehow I have a hard time taking that 'also in blind testing' -part at face value. I've yet to see a blind test of audio tweaks that doesn't do the disappearing act on its own.

I would also claim that I can change the sound significantly on all three amps in a short time without the measurements changing, very small changes can occur but would not explain the massive perceived sound difference.

Without "cheating" and changing the output impedance or putting a bump in the frequency response? I don't believe you.

I definitely believe that you can cause a massive perceived sound difference, but I don't believe it would have anything to with the output of the amps.
 

fpitas

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Wait, you are doing and know of others doing controlled listening tests the show humans can detect differences that would change our fundamental understanding of psychoacoustics but you aren’t going to publish them? That’s kind of a jerk move.
If he told us those secrets, he'd have to kill us ;)
 

fpitas

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That live “test” is pure bullshit. It wasn’t even level matched :facepalm:
But...it's on YouTube. Where all noted scientists post their work ;)
 

SIY

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Unfortunately no, I have a lot of knowledge and not least a lot of listening experience with hi-fi equipment that I have built from scratch. And i have plenty of experience making measuring instruments that are common quantity with sound, but also crucial differences.
There are different perceptions of what hifi is combined with different experience levels this can make a big difference, in discussions and results

The goal for ASR as I understand it is for the sound to reach the listener with as little measurable impact on the signal as possible.

Others don't care about this, hifi is what they like, and after the rebirth of EQ it is now easy to meet this requirement

Myself and others see hifi as a representation/illusion of a current musical event where there is a reference, a reference one should have a good knowledge of. Recordings must be found, or one must make them self.

The ASR approach more or less closes itself around what can be measured and the threshold one sets for human hearing.
If no difference can be measured, the conclusion is no audible difference, or maybe the difference may be so small that it is below the human hearing threshold.

The problem with this approach is that many of the sound differences that millions of hifi enthusiasts have heard, also in blind testing, including myself disappears, the evolution one experiences by modifying the same designs over time disappears. Sound differences on cables, components, resistors, capacitors, power cables, opamps , devices whose measurements give values below the threshold of what a human can hear. DAC , amplifiers partial power amplifiers, all these sound differences disappear and apparently only loudspeakers and acoustics make a difference,

I could cite countless examples of this approach not being consistent with reality.
But will just mention one where three guys test class D the new Hypex Purifi and ICEpower


The Hypex and Purifi measure very similarly, and many of the measurements are below audible, yet the three hear crucial differences in sound, depending on music selection among other things.
Yes, no blind tests etc, there are actually people who can profitably judge hifi without blind tests and achieve progress and correct ratings. Believe it or not
I would also claim that I can change the sound significantly on all three amps in a short time without the measurements changing, very small changes can occur but would not explain the massive perceived sound difference.

Therefore the ASR approach to hifi is not appropriate in my opinion, but it is the only thing we have at the moment besides the ear and the brain, good measurements are nice to have ,agree , strive for it myself, ,but it is no guarantee for a good illusion/reproduction but not a hindrance either , the direct opposite , bad measurements and low Sinad on the other hand can curiously give a sound experience in the absolute top class , thinking here of tubes and gramophone.
It would also be interesting to investigate how much bias belief in measurements affects what is heard , does Amir measure before he listens or what .
Please cite one example, just one, where a difference verified in controlled listening test (ears only, no peeking, level matched) was not trivially measurable.
 

fpitas

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Blumlein 88

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Amir has spent years, done hundreds of tests, spent lots of money for testing gear, plus the expense of this website. And now, only now thor79 shows us it was all a waste and worth nothing. I do wish he would tell us the secret to changing the sound of an amplifier without changing the measurements whatsoever. Pretty please thor79, give us an example of what makes this happen.
 

steve59

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All or nothing? sounds like somebody's trying to start a revolution. I vote.......Peace out
 

thor79

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Please cite one example, just one, where a difference verified in controlled listening test (ears only, no peeking, level matched) was not trivially measurable.
I've participated in several blind tests for fun and have a few reports, but I'm 110% sure they don't meet your requirements for a blind test, for one thing they haven't been double-blind tests.
But my participation in these has helped confirm that there are sound differences in cables , components and hifi equipment in general

Blind tests are, in my opinion, often more a test of the listener's skills and the quality of the room and the hi-fi system than it is a test of the test object itself

Both when listening and measuring one can subconsciously seek a result , my impression is that most who arrange blind tests do so to prove that there is no sound difference , they have a skepticism that needs to be confirmed .

Some do it to prove that theory and measurement is the whole truth , others are angry about prices and marketing , the starting point for both is often that all high-end manufacturers are fraudsters selling snake oil .

An example of this zeal to prove there is no difference is to record the sound difference from cables on a file .
All engineers know that properly constructed cables should not affect the sound signal.
Which theory , simulation and measurement confirm, and of course no difference is heard between the two identical files.
Yet they use "non-cable believers" that as an argument.

Objectivists may not realize that "cable believers" have been aware of this dilemma, this conundrum for more than 30 years.
That was the reason I wrote my first post in this thread.

Here Sean Olive proves that the placebo effect exists, and that it applies to both subjectivists and objectivists, must be a truth.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
I think many so called serious blind tests have this focus point, which has absolutely nothing to do with hifi but more about either finding the lowest common denominator or finding human weaknesses that we are all proven about and should try to avoid , by not using blind tests but instead listening objectively with a clear reference.
I am 100% sure that I would not have achieved my reproduction with blindtests , A reproduction I for large parts can't put on formula, large parts of the result is due to listening experience and the desire to try things that are not necessarily scientifically documented.

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.
As I said blind testing is not used by serious hifi developers , it is about adding and building on a listening impression , it is not the difference that matters , it is what the difference points towards that is important .There is absolutely no need to confuse this already difficult process with blind testing.

In recent times I have only seen one scientifically person who took hifi seriously and that was Kunchur.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cables-can-be-measured.36655/
Unfortunately he failed by testing two topologies singleended and balanced against each other instead of two cables. And was rightly heavily criticised, but I liked his approach which was positive hifi rather than anti hifi.

He has promised to correct the error in a new article, I am waiting patiently, but whatever the outcome I am sure no one will change their mind, neither the "non cable believers" nor the believers.
If there is a result, I am also pretty sure it will not be a technical proof, which is what I am looking for and what all technicians looking for.
 

IPunchCholla

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but whatever the outcome I am sure no one will change their mind, neither the "non cable believers" nor the believers.
Ahh yes. The two sides fallacy. Nice one.
 

IPunchCholla

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I've participated in several blind tests for fun and have a few reports, but I'm 110% sure they don't meet your requirements for a blind test, for one thing they haven't been double-blind tests.
Damn that pesky rigor. We would have unlimited energy from cold fusion, if scientists would just get over their obsession with it.
 

pkane

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Okay, I’m convinced! Magic exists! Hence forth I shall be called VoodooFull!
Finally! A convert! To prove your loyalty, you must immediately go out and acquire the most expensive AC power cord you can’t afford, install cable risers and multiple Ethernet reclockers. Then keep posting about your amazing, veil-lifting experience with these tweaks on all audio forums. Others also need to be converted, after all.
 
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