I don’t think the point is that you should or should not care necessarily. I’m quite happy listening to Spotify and have almost no consideration to pay more for higher resolution sources. I don’t think anyone is saying I should care about the difference.
"The imaginary" by Jean Paul Sartre has got us covered decades now (it's so dense you won't even find quotes I think!)
) but I try not to get too carried away by it.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Try the same test using non-linear calibration. Lower left panel of settings. Select level EQ and phase EQ. This will mostly correct for FR and Phase differences. You might consider this cheating, but if doing so greatly improves results you know which area is causing the difference. If that doesn't make for much difference check non-linear drift correction and try again. If you are experiencing issues with timing of one device or another this will let you know by helping the result or not being able to obtain one. Also worth asking if you used at least 30 seconds or more to test. Finally I'm assuming you did this more than once. I have run across such curious results which were fine on a retest.Anyone able to explain this?
Beta-test: DeltaWave Null Comparison software
The initial missing config file error will be fixed, along with the missing reference file, if none are selected. WASAPI exclusive is the preferred way to measure, which is why it's the default. I'll think about turning on auto-trim. I do agree it's useful in many more cases than it's not :)...
The DAC-ADC measures fantastic in the usual tests, however I get 16/16 success in the foobar ABX of the DAC-ADC loop vs. original file. I can provide both files and ABX result.
I know a few of Oohashi's results, and I think specifically that "hypersonic effect" was tried by other Japanese researchers and failed to replicate.
It seems to be unimportant, as I get repeatedly 16/16 abx result. I wrote more into Deltawave thread. So we have very good measurements vs. proof of audible differences. Exactly the thread topic.
neither everything nor nothing.Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:
1. Measurements are not everything.
2. You all never listen.
3. I trust my ears, not graphs.
4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.
5. You all must not listen to music at all.
6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?
7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.
8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.
9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.
10. Surely designers have created certain house sound for each equipment which your measurements don't show.
11. Your measurements are only at one frequency. You need to also measure X, Y and Z like impulse response, slew rate, etc., etc.
12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.
On and on...
I have had to answer these so many times that I thought it is time to stop having them go into every review as they are not product specific. From here on, any such questions should be posted here. Answers will be given in this thread and simply referenced in future challenges in other threads.
@AdamG247 and @BDWoody, please direct any future posts in review threads to here and not allow discussions there.
Thanks. You all are free to discuss this topic, provide answers, argue, whatever, in this thread.
@all : Over there we managed to find out what went wrong in the recording which explains why the ABX was easy to pass. Summary: the recording, by accident, had the mono mix (of left and right) on the left channel rather than the left channel alone. Right channel was correct. This happened because the ADC was set to "mono mix" where it produced that mix on the left channel only whereas the right channel isn't touched. Obviously that sounded quite different than the original (way different stereo soundstage).
There were a series of experiments which IIRC led to a couple of conclusions.
His findings are his findings, be they right or wrong. So, yes, he did. Just like Meyer & Moran's findings are their findings.
Yes I have the Akira movie and soundtrack and I am aware it is he. He says that in Japan his association with Anime would not be respected in scientific circles, hence the pseudonym. Perfectly understandable.
Assuming you mean playback gear, since your question is positioned in reply to my mention of playback gear, "...amplified with P-800 and P-300L power amplifiers (Accuphase, Yokohama, Japan), respectively, and presented through a speaker system consisting of twin cone-type woofers and a horn-type tweeter for the LFCs and a dome-type super tweeter with a diamond diaphragm for the HFCs. The speaker system was designed by one of the authors (T. Oohashi) and manufactured by Pioneer Co., Ltd. (Tokyo, Japan). This sound reproduction system had a flat frequency response of over 100 kHz."
The study of the Kansei period in Japan's history.
Thanks for this.But *did* he, now? You're aware of the many pitfalls of interpreting 'brain wave' and fMRI results? There's a famous JIR article about a fish....
Apart from his hmm pathbreaking work in audiology, he was also a composer (Akira -- he uses an alias for this work -- and if you can decipher what "Kansei studies' are, please let us know) and a tweeter designer for Pioneer.
As a wag on HA noted:
Here he is at work:
He hardly confines himself to audio, though. He;s also a biological theorist
An effective hierarchical model for the biomolecular covalent bond: an approach integrating artificial chemistry and an actual terrestrial life system.
Oohashi T, Ueno O, Maekawa T, Kawai N, Nishina E, Honda M.
Artif Life. 2009 Winter;15(1):29-58. doi: 10.1162/artl.2009.15.1.15103.
PMID: 18855570 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Evolutionary acquisition of a mortal genetic program: the origin of an altruistic gene.
Oohashi T, Maekawa T, Ueno O, Kawai N, Nishina E, Honda M.
Artif Life. 2014 Winter;20(1):95-110. doi: 10.1162/ARTL_a_00098. Epub 2013 Feb 1.
PMID: 23373980 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Abstract: As part of our research on programmed self-decomposition, we formed the hypothesis that originally immortal terrestrial organisms evolve into ones that are programmed for autonomous death. We then conducted evolutionary simulation experiments in which we examined this hypothesis using an artificial ecosystem that we designed to resemble a terrestrial ecosystem endowed with artificial chemistry. Notable results corroborating our hypothesis were obtained, which showed that mortal organisms emerged from indigenous immortal organisms through mutation; such mortal organisms survived and left behind offspring, albeit very rarely, and, having survived, surpassed immortal organisms without exception. In this article, we report the details of the above findings and also discuss a background framework we previously constructed for approaching altruism.
with an interest in possession trance
Electroencephalographic measurement of possession trance in the field.
Oohashi T, Kawai N, Honda M, Nakamura S, Morimoto M, Nishina E, Maekawa T.
Clin Neurophysiol. 2002 Mar;113(3):435-45.
PMID: 11897544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Have you noted what gear he was using in his research?
Oohashi is widely misinterpreted.
He is on record stating that nobody can hear above 20 kHz. So his finding was not that we can hear music above 20 kHz, not that music with ultrasonic content sounds any different to music with such content missing when recorded and played back, not that such recorded music (and hence high res recordings) sounds more natural or is in any way sonically preferred. He should not be vilified (nor referenced!!) as if he had found any such thing.
What he did find was an increase in Alpha-2 brainwave activity when non-stationary signals above 32 kHz are present. Increased Alpha-2 activity is normally associated with increased sensations of pleasantness (or pleasant restfulness), and so it proved in his experiments. That's why he called it an effect, not sound or music.
This should be of interest to audiophiles: it doesn't change how anything sounds, but it might lead to a general sense of more pleasure, at least sporadically, when certain types of musical recordings are being played on capable gear. Some audiophiles seek pleasure above all else, so they should be interested, at least, even if it isn't caused by what they are hearing, but does occur at the same time as they hear (some) music.
OTOH there are significant caveats.
My conclusion is that, unless something much more impressive (and positive) comes to light, there is nothing to see here for audiophiles chasing sound quality.
- I'm especially concerned that Oohashi exclusively used DSD recordings for his experiments. The noise shaping inherent to DSD means the 40 kHz band is swamped in noise, in fact it probably swamps any recorded performance frequencies in this band. Yet Fukushima/Oohashi et al found the hypersonic effect to be positive only when the performance frequencies were above 32 kHz. Hmm: the effect might be a side effect of using DSD and playing back the DSD shifted noise hump through ultrasonic tweeters. I'm not aware of anyone testing to eliminate this strong coincidence.
- Also very concerning is that the effect is negative when the performance frequencies are in the band 20-32 kHz, ie less Alpha-2 activity (and presumably less pleasantness) than when limiting frequencies to <20 kHz. This makes it impossible to conclude on the available evidence that recording and playing back music with >20 kHz bandwidth is a good thing at all.
- As others eg @Galliardist have mentioned, one or two attempts to replicate the hypersonic effect experiment have failed to find the effect. I'm thinking NHK (Japan's national broadcaster) and Laurie Fincham*, but note that these tests were looking for audible differences, which was never Oohashi's claim. However, I think they are the experiments people refer to as non-verification of the hypersonic effect.
OTOH if you really do want to reliably increase your Alpha-2 activity and experience increased pleasantness with much greater reliability, drink a cup or two of tea while listening to your recordings.
* Laurie Fincham, ‘The Golden Ear Room, Listening tests on high frequency bandwidth and clipping conducted at the AES 1980 Convention, London’ (unpublished)
cheers
So, just like others who are convinced / attempt to convince they've identified perceptible differences between hi-res and 16/44.1 CD-quality files, the answer is failure to properly implement basic controls in their testing, namely a clean playback chain (including of course in the ultrasonic band) that doesn't confound the results via downward intermodulation distortion polluting the audible band. So contrary to claims from many, hi-res is not higher quality; if anything the opposite, it's CD-quality with added distortion on playback.
I no longer remember where, and maybe it was a source in one of Oohashi's papers. There was prior research regarding sounds in rain forests. There is apparently steady sound in the 50-100 khz range. Research found that also effecting humans. It was thought that such sound makes it through our skulls via the eyesockets, and have an effect on the brain where the nerves from the ear canal are. I hope the details are not garbled too bad.Oohashi is widely misinterpreted.
He is on record stating that nobody can hear above 20 kHz. So his finding was not that we can hear music above 20 kHz, not that music with ultrasonic content sounds any different to music with such content missing when recorded and played back, not that such recorded music (and hence high res recordings) sounds more natural or is in any way sonically preferred. He should not be vilified (nor referenced!!) as if he had found any such thing.
What he did find was an increase in Alpha-2 brainwave activity when non-stationary signals above 32 kHz are present. Increased Alpha-2 activity is normally associated with increased sensations of pleasantness (or pleasant restfulness), and so it proved in his experiments. That's why he called it an effect, not sound or music.
This should be of interest to audiophiles: it doesn't change how anything sounds, but it might lead to a general sense of more pleasure, at least sporadically, when certain types of musical recordings are being played on capable gear. Some audiophiles seek pleasure above all else, so they should be interested, at least, even if it isn't caused by what they are hearing, but does occur at the same time as they hear (some) music.
OTOH there are significant caveats.
My conclusion is that, unless something much more impressive (and positive) comes to light, there is nothing to see here for audiophiles chasing sound quality.
- I'm especially concerned that Oohashi exclusively used DSD recordings for his experiments. The noise shaping inherent to DSD means the 40 kHz band is swamped in noise, in fact it probably swamps any recorded performance frequencies in this band. Yet Fukushima/Oohashi et al found the hypersonic effect to be positive only when the performance frequencies were above 32 kHz. Hmm: the effect might be a side effect of using DSD and playing back the DSD shifted noise hump through ultrasonic tweeters. I'm not aware of anyone testing to eliminate this strong coincidence.
- Also very concerning is that the effect is negative when the performance frequencies are in the band 20-32 kHz, ie less Alpha-2 activity (and presumably less pleasantness) than when limiting frequencies to <20 kHz. This makes it impossible to conclude on the available evidence that recording and playing back music with >20 kHz bandwidth is a good thing at all.
- As others eg @Galliardist have mentioned, one or two attempts to replicate the hypersonic effect experiment have failed to find the effect. I'm thinking NHK (Japan's national broadcaster) and Laurie Fincham*, but note that these tests were looking for audible differences, which was never Oohashi's claim. However, I think they are the experiments people refer to as non-verification of the hypersonic effect.
OTOH if you really do want to reliably increase your Alpha-2 activity and experience increased pleasantness with much greater reliability, drink a cup or two of tea while listening to your recordings.
* Laurie Fincham, ‘The Golden Ear Room, Listening tests on high frequency bandwidth and clipping conducted at the AES 1980 Convention, London’ (unpublished)
cheers
