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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Killingbeans

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But why? After all they have different circuit topology, power supply designs and different analog output stage sections.

Those things mean nothing by themselves. The only thing that matters is the final output.

If a DAC with a boring textbook topology, a "dirty" SMPS with some cheap linear post regulation and a simple reference design output stage manages to keep noise and distortion way, way below audibility, then what's to gain by upping the fanciness?

One of the things that makes my faulty-test-procedure alarm go off is when you mention a difference in bass impact. There's simply no mechanism (that I can think of) that can give that effect in a DAC.
 

VintageFlanker

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why did i hear (or imagine) differences if i didn't know what to expect?
I won't believe for one second that you didn't expect differences of any kind. If not, what was the actual purpose of the test to begin with?

Anyway, your test isn't valid at all considering the lack of level match (by ears being 100% inaccurate). Therefore, I see nothing to discuss about results being invalid in the first place.;)
 
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Killingbeans

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That only leaves one question: why did i hear (or imagine) differences if i didn't know what to expect?

I could have been a number of things that got the imagination going. The design language of the DACs, the color of their LEDs, impressions from subjective reviews you've read about them, flowery marketing material you've read, ideas you have about their electrical components etc. etc.

Once those things take root in your subconscious mind, you can't just will them away.
 

Killingbeans

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I think it's mostly due to a rapid increase in forum activity. I often come across pools of superstition in threads where people have gathered for a swim. These days they grow so fast that I usually don't want to be the party pooper who points out the urine content of the water :D
 

ahofer

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That only leaves one question: why did i hear (or imagine) differences if i didn't know what to expect?
Bias doesn't work as simply as you suggest. You can't say "it wasn't what I was expecting" and assume bias has been mathematically removed. There are many, inconsistent biases operating at once, not just one (conscious confirmation bias, in your case).
 

ahofer

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I didn't say it wasn't what i was expecting, i said i didn't know what to expect.
Still not how bias works. You can’t say “I had no preconceptions” and declare yourself fully unbiased.

But you intimated that you were hoping to like the Mytek:

Oh, and one more important data point; i WANTED to prefer the Mytek, therefore i was biased against the Bryston, yet i still preferred the Bryston or should i correct myself and say that i 'detected' differences between the two DACs.

In any event, this is why it is good to test without knowing which equipment is playing.
 

Vlach

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But you intimated that you were hoping to like the Mytek:
Correct, i was hoping to prefer the Mytek, yet i preferred the Bryston even though the Mytek was (purposely) set to play very slightly louder to give it an unfair advantage and increase its chances. It didn't help it. It sill sounded leaner, cleaner and more analytical. Using this approach to counter my bias makes it difficult to ignore the differences i heard or to conclude that they sound identical. They sound different and in the opposite way i had hoped.

Edit: If i end up getting the Qutest in the 'hopes' that it sounds better to my ears than the Mytek, i accept that it is not an impossibility that i would end up preferring the Mytek. I simply can't predict which one i would prefer ahead of time. I don't have the vaguest clue what to expect.
 
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DonR

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Correct, i was hoping to prefer the Mytek, yet i preferred the Bryston even though the Mytek was (purposely) set to play very slightly louder to give it an unfair advantage and increase its chances. It didn't help it. It sill sounded leaner, thinner and more analytical. Using this approach to counter my bias makes it difficult to ignore the differences i heard or to conclude that they sound identical. They sound different and in the opposite way i had hoped.

Edit: If i end up getting the Qutest in the 'hopes' that it sounds better to my ears than the Mytek, i accept that it is not impossible that i would end up preferring the Mytek. I simply don't know which one i would prefer ahead of time. I don't have the vaguest clue.
Choosing the one that sounds best to you is the ultimate goal. It is of no consequence if they have inaudible differences and all the differences you hear are due to biases as long as you have a preference.

Three blind men come across an elephant. The first man happens upon its leg, and concludes it’s a tree. The second man bumps into its trunk, and concludes it’s a snake. The last blind man feels its tail, and concludes it’s a broom.

Moral of the story? One person's subjective truth may not be another's truth, let alone the whole truth or even any part of the truth.

and does it matter if you are happy with the tree or the snake or the broom?
 

Blumlein 88

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Welcome.

Stop right there. Everything you write after this just won't have any credibility at all.;)
Yes, a thousand times yes. Seems I have seen more improper volume matching in the past week than normally seen in a month. I think I'm going to do a thread on volume matching. I've said much the same as VintageFlanker. STOP, if there is no volume matching that is it, your test has no validity. Why is this so hard to get across. One more time: volume matching by ear is not good enough. You can have enough difference to make one device sound better and it will sound the same volume to you. And it is simple, just too simple not to match volumes properly.
 

Blumlein 88

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I did expect differences but i had no idea which characteristics would emerge.


Curiosity.
It has been done many times where people are asked to differentiate between two pieces of gear. Yet the switch is never made. They see, but only hear one device both times. Even though no expectations are given beyond the idea of listening for them people regularly describe differences. And there were none because nothing was changed.

You were doing a test, you had some expectation there could be a difference and you heard one. Why you heard what you did could be influenced by many things. Is there a genuine difference, impossible to say from your test. Odds are against it.
 

VintageFlanker

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I don't have the vaguest clue what to expect.
You do. You've already red subjective reviews and feedbacks, so you absolutely do.
Using this approach to counter my bias makes it difficult to ignore the differences i heard or to conclude that they sound identical. They sound different and in the opposite way i had hoped.
As just everyone already told: This is not on you to deal with your own bias. Why does it seem so hard to understand? How can't you figure that out when one sentence after the other, you write "the opposite way I have hoped" and then "I didn't expect anything"...?
i preferred the Bryston even though the Mytek was (purposely) set to play very slightly louder to give it an unfair advantage and increase its chances.
On your first post you said that you "did your best to level match" and now, that you tried to give the Mytek an advantage... on purpose?


Bottom line: Sure you "heard" a difference, because absolutely everything has been made to do so. Sighted listening, extremely biased, without any care for level match, or even worse, care to not level match.

At this point, and to answer your question: No, I'm not saying that these two DACs should sound absolutely the same. I just say that your listening test is everything but a proof they don't.
 
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voodooless

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you kidding? On your first post you said that you "did your best to level match" and now, that you tried to give the Mytek an advantage... on purpose?! :facepalm:
To be fair here, I can understand this experiment. The general consensus is that the louder DAC sounds better when not level-matched. So when presumably, you level matched, and then make one of them louder, you ought to like the louder one.
 

VintageFlanker

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To be fair here, I can understand this experiment. The general consensus is that the louder DAC sounds better when not level-matched. So when presumably, you level matched, and then make one of them louder, you ought to like the louder one.
Agreed. But it still is a highly biased comparaison at the end. ;)
 

DavidEdwinAston

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Correct, i was hoping to prefer the Mytek, yet i preferred the Bryston even though the Mytek was (purposely) set to play very slightly louder to give it an unfair advantage and increase its chances. It didn't help it. It sill sounded leaner, cleaner and more analytical. Using this approach to counter my bias makes it difficult to ignore the differences i heard or to conclude that they sound identical. They sound different and in the opposite way i had hoped.

Edit: If i end up getting the Qutest in the 'hopes' that it sounds better to my ears than the Mytek, i accept that it is not an impossibility that i would end up preferring the Mytek. I simply can't predict which one i would prefer ahead of time. I don't have the vaguest clue what to expect.
If you own the Mytek and the Bryston, why are you considering buying the Qutest?
I do use the latter, and am perfectly content with it. However, come the day, it's replacement will be a presumably cheaper alternative, as suggested on ASR.
 

ahofer

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In the end, you should absolutely go with preference among the things you own, as suggested above. But my advice is to think about audible differences before pulling out your wallet and buying new expensive kit.
 

Galliardist

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In the end, you should absolutely go with preference among the things you own, as suggested above. But my advice is to think about audible differences before pulling out your wallet and buying new expensive kit.
Actually, you might also want to think about the other differences, from warranty and support through build quality, features and ergonomics, as well. In fact, with electronics, those may be more important, and more obvious.
 
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