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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Blumlein 88

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Only allowed to discuss any non-subjective ideas in the Sound Science sub-forum at Head-Fi and the moderation of that doesn't allow for much you might expect would be okay. Audiophile style or whatever it calls itself these days implemented a similar 2nd class citizenship forum. Steve Hoffmann (of stolen master tapes fame) might allow some discussion, but if it goes the way they don't like they delete entire threads.

So glad Amir started ASR.
 

Killingbeans

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A 'beautiful' ear-for-ear game this one: people get banned on subjective sites like headfi/etc and come here to "kick subjective ass". How's that useful to anyone?

Not very useful at all. But how many ASR users have actually taken that route?

I know I didn't.

I came to the forum in 2018 looking for info on the original Topping D50 and found something even better, actual measurements. I had been in hiatus from Hi-Fi as a hobby in a couple of decades, and ASR's no BS approach sparked a renewed and more intense interest. It's the only online community focused on the hobby, I've ever been a part of.

I made an account on Head-Fi a while back. Mostly because I was toying with the idea of producing "comfort upgrades" for headphones and wanted an interest tjek, but also because I would like to explore other perspectives. Haven't really been active there though. Can't figure out what I'm supposed to do in there...

I've never felt the need for kicking anybody's ass, and I don't think many ASR users feel it either?

I do however find it fascinating how we as humans have a tendency to let our emotions define our reality, and how it can f¤¤k us over if we aren't careful. My personal "war" is an attempt at helping to make awareness of that unfortunate fact more widespread.
 

ahofer

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Only allowed to discuss any non-subjective ideas in the Sound Science sub-forum at Head-Fi and the moderation of that doesn't allow for much you might expect would be okay. Audiophile style or whatever it calls itself these days implemented a similar 2nd class citizenship forum. Steve Hoffmann (of stolen master tapes fame) might allow some discussion, but if it goes the way they don't like they delete entire threads.

So glad Amir started ASR.
At Audiogon they make up reasons to delete your posts, and the pile-on for objective comments is about as nasty as you'll find. Imagine a bunch of Statler and Waldorfs insulting your ears, your wallet, your IQ, and your common sense. My take on Audiogon is as follows:

 

AdamG

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Vlach

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As someone who is considering the Chord Qutest and having just finished reading through this entire thread, I have a question available for those of you who insist well engineered DACs with similar measurements sound exactly the same if properly volume matched.

I recently purchased the Mytek Liberty DAC ll for my desktop/headphone set up and decided to (informally) test it against my Bryston BDA-2 in my main speaker system. I had both DACs connected to the same preamp (Simaudio P3) so i could swap inputs back & forth on the fly from my listening position and volume matched the DACs by ear the best i could. After roughly 30 minutes using songs that i know very well, It was obvious to me that the Mytek sounded leaner, more analytical, more transparent, cooler and had less bass impact/weight compared to the Bryston. Being fully aware of the importance of proper volume matching and understanding that the thinnest mismatch in volume level invalidates any type of comparison i decided to increase the Mytek's output level by 1 click in order to give the Mytek an unfair advantage. At this point it was obvious that the Mytek was slightly louder and this translated into a slightly larger sound stage compared to the Bryston.

Now to my question; why did the same characteristics continue to persist between the two DACs? The Bryston still sounded fuller, warmer, had more bass impact and was less detailed. The Mytek still sounded leaner, more analytical, more transparent, cooler and had less bass impact. Different tonal balances for sure.

Oh, and one more important data point; i WANTED to prefer the Mytek, therefore i was biased against the Bryston, yet i still preferred the Bryston or should i correct myself and say that i 'detected' differences between the two DACs.

Ok, enough said, I am all ears now.
 
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ahofer

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As someone who is considering the Chord Qutest and having just finished reading through this entire thread, I have a question available for those of you who insist well engineered DACs with similar measurements sound exactly the same if properly volume matched.

I recently purchased the Mytek Liberty DAC ll for my desktop/headphone set up and decided to (informally) test it against my Bryston BDA-2 in my main speaker system. I had both DACs connected to the same preamp (Simaudio P3) so i could swap inputs back & forth on the fly from my listening position and volume matched the DACs by ear the best i could. After roughly 30 minutes using songs that i know very well, It was obvious to me that the Mytek sounded leaner, more analytical, more transparent, cooler and had less bass impact/weight compared to the Bryston. Being fully aware of the importance of proper volume matching and understanding that the thinnest mismatch in volume level invalidates any type of comparison i decided to increase the Mytek's output level by 1 click in order to give the Mytek an unfair advantage. At this point it was obvious that the Mytek was slightly louder and this translated into a slightly larger sound stage compared to the Bryston.

Now to my question; why did the same differences continue to persist between the two DACs? The Bryston was fuller, warmer, had more bass impact and was less detailed. The Mytek was leaner, more analytical, more transparent, cooler and had less bass impact. Different tonal balances for sure.

Oh, and one more important data point; i WANTED to prefer the Mytek, therefore i was biased against the Bryston, yet i still preferred the Bryston or should i correct myself and say that i 'detected' differences between the two DACs.

Ok, enough said, I am all ears now.
Interesting wrinkle adjusting the volume.

I understand that sometimes different DAC filters sound audibly different. I'm still skeptical this would survive controlled testing, as always, but I"ve seen trials here that suggest that is possible. Or, possibly, the Bryston's analog processing somehow has a FR signature or more 2nd harmonic distortion.
 

Jimbob54

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As someone who is considering the Chord Qutest and having just finished reading through this entire thread, I have a question available for those of you who insist well engineered DACs with similar measurements sound exactly the same if properly volume matched.

I recently purchased the Mytek Liberty DAC ll for my desktop/headphone set up and decided to (informally) test it against my Bryston BDA-2 in my main speaker system. I had both DACs connected to the same preamp (Simaudio P3) so i could swap inputs back & forth on the fly from my listening position and volume matched the DACs by ear the best i could. After roughly 30 minutes using songs that i know very well, It was obvious to me that the Mytek sounded leaner, more analytical, more transparent, cooler and had less bass impact/weight compared to the Bryston. Being fully aware of the importance of proper volume matching and understanding that the thinnest mismatch in volume level invalidates any type of comparison i decided to increase the Mytek's output level by 1 click in order to give the Mytek an unfair advantage. At this point it was obvious that the Mytek was slightly louder and this translated into a slightly larger sound stage compared to the Bryston.

Now to my question; why did the same differences continue to persist between the two DACs? The Bryston still sounded fuller, warmer, had more bass impact and was less detailed. The Mytek still sounded leaner, more analytical, more transparent, cooler and had less bass impact. Different tonal balances for sure.

Oh, and one more important data point; i WANTED to prefer the Mytek, therefore i was biased against the Bryston, yet i still preferred the Bryston or should i correct myself and say that i 'detected' differences between the two DACs.

Ok, enough said, I am all ears now.
You always knew which DAC was playing?
 

Vlach

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Interesting wrinkle adjusting the volume.

I understand that sometimes different DAC filters sound audibly different. I'm still skeptical this would survive controlled testing, as always, but I"ve seen trials here that suggest that is possible. Or, possibly, the Bryston's analog processing somehow has a FR signature or more 2nd harmonic distortion.
Fair enough, so you accept the idea that all DACs don't necessarily sound the same?
 

VintageFlanker

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Welcome.
volume matched the DACs by ear the best i could
Stop right there. Everything you write after this just won't have any credibility at all.;)

Oh, and one more important data point; i WANTED to prefer the Mytek, therefore i was biased against the Bryston, yet i still preferred the Bryston
Unrelevant at best. You cannot chose
yourself being immuned to confirmation bias that way.
 

ahofer

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Fair enough, so you accept the idea that all DACs don't necessarily sound the same?
1) "I'm skeptical, as always, that this would survive controlled testing", but I'm allowing for the things I've seen that have *some* actual evidence.
2) I believe anything you *can* hear would be visible in measurements.

And since you are making an improbable claim, consider my signature.
 

ahofer

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Does that mean it would be impossible for them to not sound identical if properly tested?
Not impossible. Highly improbable they could be told apart with only aural information. To the point of not really worth pursuing unless it is done with more rigor.
 

Vlach

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Not impossible. Highly improbable they could be told apart with only aural information. To the point of not really worth pursuing unless it is done with more rigor.
Re: Highly improbable they could be told apart with only aural information.

But why? After all they have different circuit topology, power supply designs and different analog output stage sections.
 
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ahofer

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Re: Highly improbable they could be told apart with only aural information.

But why?
Because there is little evidence that people have been able to do that in controlled, double-blind testing. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that people have trouble with more stark differences than you would find between two well-engineered DACs. For instance MP3 vs. lossless, <-60db distortion, multiple generation digital copies, etc.
 

Vlach

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Because there is little evidence that people have been able to do that in controlled, double-blind testing. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that people have trouble with more stark differences than you would find between two well-engineered DACs. For instance MP3 vs. lossless, <-60db distortion, multiple generation digital copies, etc.
Does that apply to everybody or can some individuals truly distinguish differences sound-wise?
 

ahofer

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Does that apply to everybody or can some individuals truly distinguish differences sound-wise?
Interestingly, trained listeners can do a lot better. If memory serves, audiophiles and musicians are no better than general pop.

Training means learning for tells. For instance, I can get MP3 vs lossless with classical music, usually. But I'm listening for very specific tells that I might not otherwise notice. I understand some can hear something in cymbals that makes it work for them. Trained listeners are typically versed in these very specific differences, the way a sommelier can name 50 different flavors from smell or taste (and use color to narrow it down).

There's quite a bit on this subject here and over at Archimago. Some fun foobar sample tests.
 

Vlach

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Interestingly, trained listeners can do a lot better. If memory serves, audiophiles and musicians are no better than general pop.

Training means learning for tells. For instance, I can get MP3 vs lossless with classical music, usually. But I'm listening for very specific tells that I might not otherwise notice. I understand some can hear something in cymbals that makes it work for them. Trained listeners are typically versed in these very specific differences, the way a sommelier can name 50 different flavors from smell or taste (and use color to narrow it down).

There's quite a bit on this subject here and over at Archimago. Some fun foobar sample tests.
Interesting facts, thank you. So basically, even if the volume had been perfectly leveled between the two DACs, the Mytek could only sound leaner and the Bryston could only sound more full bodied because i could see them?
 

ahofer

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Interesting facts, thank you. So basically, even if the volume had been perfectly leveled between the two DACs, the Mytek could only sound leaner and the Bryston could only sound more full bodied because i could see them?
Most likely answer. Sorry.
 
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