Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[DonR]

Fair go - we don’t know what mastering work @presence is doing. Analogue tapes remain analogue, LP mastering remains analogue at least at the pointy end, and a freelance engineer may well find themselves working with a client’s analogue equipment.

Do you also find analogue to be more emotional? Is it a sad or happy emotion?

 

[Newman]

Every 0,2 dB gain change make drastic difference

I won't hold my breath, but... could you provide some samples?

Unlabelled samples…so we are not subject to suggestion.

 

[Newman]

Measured reference level is a good starting point, and it takes some time to calibrate your ears to reference room better, because it has to be done manually. There are also a lot of clients that avoid 'technical only' engineers for that reason. And again, no, engineer is not an artist, except for own material, but there are many ways of enhance sound. Some ways sound better, depending the material. The key is to know what will work in which case. You can mix/master perfectly calibrated and measured room and wonder why your result sound desent but not excellent. Some clients pick an engineer for the artistic view as well, if they share the same view.

No issues with any of this.

Re: “calibrate your ears to reference room”, Dr Floyd Toole has repeatedly described the fact of adaptation, where we adapt internally to a familiar room and familiar speakers. It is not so much a skill as an inevitability.

Dr Toole also describes how the mastering engineer who ‘calibrates his or her ears’ to a non-neutral room or non-neutral speakers is contributing to the Circle of Confusion.

Both my above comments lead to the same suggestion: don’t overestimate yourself. Instead, humbly accept your role in needing a neutral room and neutral speakers, then go and apply your hard-earned art and skill and sensitivity in creating sonically-great productions.

Cheers

 

[presence]

No issues with any of this.

Re: “calibrate your ears to reference room”, Dr Floyd Toole has repeatedly described the fact of adaptation, where we adapt internally to a familiar room and familiar speakers. It is not so much a skill as an inevitability.

Dr Toole also describes how the mastering engineer who ‘calibrates his or her ears’ to a non-neutral room or non-neutral speakers is contributing to the Circle of Confusion.

Both my above comments lead to the same suggestion: don’t overestimate yourself. Instead, humbly accept your role in needing a neutral room and neutral speakers, then go and apply your hard-earned art and skill and sensitivity in creating sonically-great productions.

Cheers

Its quite hard to find a neutral something from this world. And if it could happen, you are not neutral. The adaptation take place. To adapt you need passion, which feed your motivation.

Sorry, I need to run now, a lot work to do. Thank you for you time fellas. Keep up the reviews!

Cheers

 

[solderdude]

It pays to have a known good reference at hand to 'reset' the hearing when needed.

 

[Galliardist]

Do you also find analogue to be more emotional? Is it a sad or happy emotion?

Of course not.
I took the original comment to be an attempt to say that analogue requires more care in mastering, and misunderstood your critique as a result.

 

[MrSoul4470]

I can't compare the M500 mkIII with previous M500 versions, but I have the mkIII here and also my recent Topping D30 Pro. I am not a native English speaker, so I apologize for all the typos and grammatical errors I will make.

I know there are many here that think that DACs are all transparent and looking for sound differences makes no sense. I think it still makes a lot of sense even if they measure basically all the same.

I watched the YouTube review from Soundnews before getting the S.M.S.L DAC and in that video the guy also compared the mkIII to the Toping D30 Pro. His conclusion was that the mkIII is a fun sounding DAC with better, meatier midrange, more power and dynamics and a great soundstage.

My speakers are Genelec 8331s and my listening distance is no more than 2 feet.

Let me tell you what I think. I've used the mkIII for about one week now. I hook up my old Topping DAC again and did some comparisons today. And since I am a human being and easily influenced I asked my wife about her opinion after I had come to my conclusion. She doesn't care about HiFi and stuff, so when she tells me what she thinks it is totally unbiased.

Of course I took care of the loudness level of both units and made sure they both play at the same volume.

When I turned on the mkIII for the first time, the first thing that came to my mind was: It seems not to be as loud as my Topping DAC. It just seemed like I had to turn up the volume knob a bit more to get the same feeling of loudness. But, they measured exactly the same SPL. Everything seemed more laid back, softer with the mkIII. The second thing that was obvious to me was the lack of bass. Bass was there, but somehow softer, rounder. Where the Topping D30 Pro hits unbelievable hard, dry and fast, the mkIII just seemed to lack power. Sometimes the bass with the Topping can be a bit tiring because of its dryness, but often it is just more structured and detailed with more punch.

Where the Topping sounds really direct in your face, almost like the speakers are hooked up directly to a microphone amp, the mkIII sounds like you move a few steps back from the speakers. With the Topping it sounds more like the band is playing in front of you in your room. Maybe the Topping sounds a bit flatter, but in my opinion everything fits together better. Like voices are not coming from a ghostly cloud in front of you, but from a real person with a real body.

Transients on the Topping just sound faster with more power. Impulses seem a bit rounded from the mkIII. Basically everything just sounds softer through the mkIII. Maybe that's less tiring and more "HiFi", but I'm not sure it is for me.

I really disagree with some of the things the guy in the Soundnews review says. No, I don't think the mkIII has a lot of power. I think it really lacks power compared to the Topping D30 Pro. It also lacks attack and speed. He says that voices have more body through the mkIII and I totally disagree. Voices just sound thinner and somehow ghostly. And he says the mkIII is a fun sounding DAC. No, it is not. To me it is almost a boring sounding DAC. I prefer half an hour of hard hitting, dynamic and fun sound that is maybe a bit tiring over 2 hours listening to music that gives me no excitement (through the mkIII).

Those sound differences are not small. I did not have to struggle to find them. Those differences are absolutely obvious and for anyone to hear.

This morning I played a few songs for my wife. I told her to sit down and listen. To listen to the bass, soundstage, voices and just how she likes the sound overall. Then I set up the Topping DAC. She didn't even know which one was playing or which one was the new DAC. When I asked her which DAC she liked better, she said the second one (meaning it was the Topping that she liked better). I asked her what it was that she liked better. And she told me exactly the things that I felt about the two units. Like the mkIII overall was boring to listen to, lacked bass and precision, like voices just seemed unreal and so on.

So no, the mkIII is NOT MY favorite $500 DAC (the Soundnews guy seems to love it). I think the Topping is really better. The mkIII is a nice, pretty unit. It looks good with a nice display, but it's just not powerful or anything. Maybe the mkIII doesn't play well with my Genelecs (for whatever reason that might be) and the Topping just matches better. Maybe it is also my personal taste and I just like the sound signature of the Topping better.

It drives me up the wall when I read that DACs all sound the same. No, no and no, they do not. A DAC (device) is more than just a D/A converter chip. Yes, they all play perfectly linear, but there is more to music and sound than just linearity. I really couldn't care less if the SINAD of a device is 130 or just 100dB. It makes no audible difference, so why measure it?

So. That’s what I think. No one has to believe what said and I don't want to keep anyone from getting the mkIII. This DAC is just not for me and I am going to return it. I think I am better off with my old Topping D30 Pro.

 

[Westsounds]

It drives me up the wall when I read that DACs all sound the same. No, no and no, they do not. A DAC (device) is more than just a D/A converter chip. Yes, they all play perfectly linear, but there is more to music and sound than just linearity. I really couldn't care less if the SINAD of a device is 130 or just 100dB. It makes no audible difference, so why measure it?

It does have a lot of emphasis placed on it and I would kind of agree. It's something that can be measured but why place so much emphasis on it if it cannot be heard?

I think the point of it is, if I'm not mistaken, the measurement shows that it is of a level where no matter if you are a golden ears audiophile there is nothing 'subjectively special' with DACs that cost 10x more or that's been marketed to have special powers towards human emotions. The phenomenon is we all hear and interpret sound differently. This for the audio industry is an absolute dream as its full of smoke and mirrors to hoodwink people to buy products.

Technically though putting a measurement on electronic equipment can give a reference point on it. Measuring with an instrument is not open to interpretation or any such smoke and mirrors subjectifcation. Whether someone likes something or not is irrelevant. People often have different and extremely varied tastes.

Or maybe the author of this site @amirm can explain 'why this test' better than that.

 

[Westsounds]

Maybe the mkIII doesn't play well with my Genelecs (for whatever reason that might be) and the Topping just matches better.

Another huge factor! I remember going to an audio store many years ago armed with the latest What Hi-Fi reviews primed to buy speakers.

I picked the two best reviewed products they had! 5 golden stars or whatever to go with my 5 star amp. These things practically put you back in time to where the music was recorded in their reviews. The salesman said 'you don't want those with your amp sir', I said shut up let me hear them and I'll pick the best one and take that one home. I'd already imagined my future with one of these speakers. However, both to me sounded pretty naff really. He said I have another set here which suit your amp better. I then looked those up 3 stars! 3 stars you must be joking they're trash! Plus they were ugly and the reviews very lack luster, I thought well I'm here now. They were put on and the music sounded real, as if everything sounded real and true to life.

Equipment matching is a huge part in the way things sound overall. Measurements and subjective reviews are not good indicators of how things will sound in application. But as said, one thing about measurements is they are not open to interpretation. If it measures well and is fit for purpose it's the truth.

 

[MrSoul4470]

Thanks for your kind reply and not doubting everything I said. Sometimes people can put you through a real hard time here for having an opinion that is not respected here.

I can totally relate to what you said about your speakers. I used to have Neumann KH120s (2-way) and thought it would be a huge upgrade if I got Neumann KH310s (3-way). I ordered them (something that of course needs appoval from my wife and that's hard work to get). I was looking forward to getting my KH 310, then I compared them at home and was dissapointed. I liked the small KH120 better than the more premium KH310. Again I experienced that it is not about reviews and technical data, but my personal preferences and my taste. I don't have to impress anyone with my stereo setup. I don't have to show off with it. The only thing that matters is that I enjoy it.

But back to the topic. I've had other DAC before and all of them sounded different. I was just a bit surprised that my experience was so different from that guy's from the YouTube review. Did we even listen to the same DACs???? But then again it just proves to me again that you can't trust anyone but yourself.

Maybe SINAD is a good indicator for the general engineering quality of a device, but sound quality wise it is pretty irrelevant (at least to me). A SINAD of 100dB is perfectly fine.
I think what's way more important is like input and output impedance of a device, impulse response or the capability of a device to deliver long-term current. I think those are things that would explain sound differences better.

And like I said, maybe the S.M.S.L M500 mkIII is just not for me. I don't want to convince anyone not to get it. The thing that just bothers me here on ASR sometimes is the complete denial of audible differences.

 

[Merifon]

I think it is a myth (especially here on ASR) that all DACs sound the same, just because they basically measure the same. But okay, some here even choose their speakers by looking at the frequency response. I would order 2 or 3 DACs and keep what I like best.

It's not totally a mith, DAC's built upon same chip, are more similar among themselves, than speakers that show a similar response. It would make sense, order and test DAC's with different architecture.

 

[MrSoul4470]

It's not totally a mith, DAC's built upon same chip, are more similar among themselves, than speakers that show a similar response. It would make sense, order and test DAC's with different architecture.

Yes, it is a myth. Just now I have a Topping D30 Pro here next to a brand new S.M.S.L M500 mk III and they couldn't sound more different. The Topping is much punchier, faster. Compared to it the S.M.S.L sounds thin and boring. Not small differences but very obvious. I'm not a bass head at all, but the S.M.S.L just cannot deliver. I had even hooked up one DAC to the left speaker, the other one to the right speaker and I made sure levels are the same (SPL meter). The S.M.S.L just sounded thin, flat and unnatural compared to the Topping. The sound overall was very unbalanced using different DACs for both channels.
I really wonder if people just repeat what other people here say ("DACs all sound the same") or if they ever actually do comparisons. I don't believe they do. And I just said it in another thread, but a DAC (device) is much more than just a converter chip. The ignorance in this forum sometimes is really upsetting.

 

[Merifon]

Yes, it is a myth. Just now I have a Topping D30 Pro here next to a brand new S.M.S.L M500 mk III and they couldn't sound more different. The Topping is much punchier, faster. Compared to it the S.M.S.L sounds thin and boring. Not small differences but very obvious. I'm not a bass head at all, but the S.M.S.L just cannot deliver. I had even hooked up one DAC to the left speaker, the other one to the right speaker and I made sure levels are the same (SPL meter). The S.M.S.L just sounded thin, flat and unnatural compared to the Topping. The sound overall was very unbalanced using different DACs for both channels.
I really wonder if people just repeat what other people here say ("DACs all sound the same") or if they ever actually do comparisons. I don't believe they do. And I just said it in another thread, but a DAC (device) is much more than just a converter chip. The ignorance in this forum sometimes is really upsetting.

OK, I did comparisons always between DAC's with different architecture. Next time I'll do with more similar model.
Anyway, if I'm not wrong, D30 pro and 500mkIII, don't share the same chip...

 

[MrSoul4470]

OK, I did comparisons always between DAC's with different architecture. Next time I'll do with more similar model.
Anyway, if I'm not wrong, D30 pro and 500mkIII, don't share the same chip...

I think different chips really are not the problem here. I believe DAC chips in fact are almost transparent. Everything around it is not.

 

[BDWoody]

I think different chips really are not the problem here. I believe DAC chips in fact are almost transparent. Everything around it is not.

Everything around it is also being measured, so not sure what you are saying. You don't believe he breaks out the chip itself do you?

 

[MrSoul4470]

Everything around it is also being measured, so not sure what you are saying. You don't believe he breaks out the chip itself do you?

Seriously? EVERYTHING around it is measured? Well, not in the reviews I read here on ASR at least.

 

[Merifon]

I think different chips really are not the problem here. I believe DAC chips in fact are almost transparent. Everything around it is not.

Could be, i would compare AKM and ESS ADI-2. They should really share everything but the chip. Maybe sometime in the future...

 

[BDWoody]

Seriously? EVERYTHING around it is measured? Well, not in the reviews I read here on ASR at least.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, or that you really understand what you are arguing against. The analog output produced by whatever is inside the case, the same output that gets connected to gear, is what gets connected to the analyzer. Whatever is impacting the final signal has had its chance to do so, and that signal gets measured for noise and distortion under different conditions. When the differences at the level you are talking about are 1:1,000,000,000, when someone says they can hear that difference, it is going to require more than claims and ever ramping up bluster.

One of the big reasons we tend to dismiss these claims easily is that there is no evidence behind them. No one has yet provided evidence (meaning basic controls were used) that they can differentiate at that level under anything close to normal listening conditions with real music in a real room and without extreme gain riding. If you believe you could do so, that would be great. It would be the first ever.

Are there differences between DACs? Sure. Are they audible? Sometimes. Can we predict that? Not perfectly, but once out of the grey zone and into that -120dBfs realm, and you think you are hearing differences, smart money is that you are kidding yourself unless something is broken or wasn't chosen with the right specs to start with.

 

[MrSoul4470]

You simply cannot measure EVERYTHING that "describes" how a DAC or any other device sounds. It's nonsense that unfortunately is wide spread here on ASR. And that nonsense usually comes from people that never even tried themselves to compare and find out. But we are here on ASR: We measure sound, we don't use our ears and actually listen.

 

[MrSoul4470]

Are there differences between DACs? Sure. Are they audible? Sometimes. Can we predict that? Not perfectly...

Thanks. Everything is said then I guess.