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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Veri

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No offense, but not everything can be explain scientifically (god ,love Bobby Fischer and so on). I really love this forum, and I have learned quite a lot here, but when it comes to tube,R2R and i2s I have notice that the measurement are not telling the all story.
Using i2s input/output for no real 'reason' (like hdmi de-embedding or so) is absolutely useless, I'm really sorry but it is. There's no benefit. There's no gain.
 

fabien32

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Oh we can explain why... it's the human brain, nothing to do with the devices and connection type, generally speaking. My suggestion would be to look closely at perception bias, expectation bias etc. There is a wealth of information here at ASR in fact, this is a start;


JSmith
to dismiss so easily and think we know everything is not scientific anymore, since 1905 science as become more uncertain (See Eisenberg's Uncertainty Law, quantum theories superstring theories etc.) and to assume "is perception bias, expectation bias etc, and that we don't look closely " is not very scientific either
 

JSmith

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assume "is perception bias, expectation bias etc, and that we don't look closely " is not very scientific either
Oh it's quite scientific and there are no assumptions being made... although I fear you may be making many. If you want to get into existential physics, all good, start up a thread, an excellent subject. However that is a much deeper and broader topic than measuring the electrical characteristics of say an amplifier.

In this case we're literally talking about basic data transfer... i²s is intended for internal use in a device as a serial bus interface.

To claim such a massive "improvement" in the final sound being produced by your speakers and interpreted by your ears/brain based on i²s use only is quite an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary evidence in my opinion.


JSmith
 

fabien32

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Oh it's quite scientific and there are no assumptions being made... although I fear you may be making many. If you want to get into existential physics, all good, start up a thread, an excellent subject. However that is a much deeper and broader topic than measuring the electrical characteristics of say an amplifier.

In this case we're literally talking about basic data transfer... i²s is intended for internal use in a device as a serial bus interface.

To claim such a massive "improvement" in the final sound being produced by your speakers and interpreted by your ears/brain based on i²s use only is quite an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary evidence in my opinion.


JSmith
as i said you are welcome to come and listen and hear for yourself.
 

JSmith

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as i said you are welcome to come and listen and hear for yourself.
So your offering me a free trip to Israel? I could do with a holiday... :cool:

How about this... fairly simple, just have a friend or family member change the connection while you're not looking and instruct them to be random (i.e. plugging back in the same one often and swapping as well) and ensure you're not easily able to detect the connection change from other cues. See if you can get 8 or 9 out of 10 correct. If so, please, post the results here and members can assist to investigate further.

Otherwise if your mind helps you feel there is better sound to you using i²s... whatever, kick back and enjoy some music.


JSmith
 

poxymoron

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I invite you to my studio to listen, test and compare, I assure you you will change your mind
Listen and compare blindly of course? Blindly and controled, in an ABX test? Anybody in the Jerusalem area that can visit this guy?
 

poxymoron

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I2S is without a doubt a better transport audibly, you'll be spending thousands correcting USB before it approaches the sound quality i2s offers, and don't speak if you haven't listen to it less own a dac that has it. Measurements aren't everything but cheapskates will use it as means to avoid all other possibilities out there. Tubes, r2r exists and they are fantastic, but you cheapskates will never understand less buy one.
Interesting and thanks for your input. I'd like to know more about your own system if you'd be willing to share this. Thanks.
 

Jimbob54

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the way I see it, music purpose Is something to be enjoyed true the hears. so people with absolute hearing should have a say in the matter. just saying
You can have a say- but please bear this in mind from post #1

So Paul McGowan, please don't spread misinformation about I²S sounding better. Start by showing us measurements that demonstrate anything improving and if so, why PS Audio gear doesn't have good enough S/PDIF performance to need something better. And then, point the camera at yourself, connect both inputs to your DAC and have someone else switch inputs and see if you can tell the difference. Since levels don't change, it is dead simple to conduct a blind test.

Substitute "Paul McGowan" for "Fabien32" and "PS Audio gear" for whatever devices you are using.

Until then- appeals to ones own hearing ability aren't going to get you very far on here
 

AdamG247

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so people with absolute hearing should have a say in the matter.
Could you expound on the definition/meaning of “Absolute hearing” please. How was the testing done and how long ago did this test take place? Do you have the Audiogram that should have been produced as a result of this test? I am intrigued and simply wish to learn something new today.
 

dartinbout

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Could you expound on the definition/meaning of “Absolute hearing” please. How was the testing done and how long ago did this test take place? Do you have the Audiogram that should have been produced as a result of this test? I am intrigued and simply wish to learn something new today.
I would rather know more about "Absolute Here-ing". Is it a Zen thing? Or maybe "Be Hear Now".
 

Killingbeans

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No offense, but not everything can be explain scientifically (god ,love Bobby Fischer and so on). I really love this forum, and I have learned quite a lot here, but when it comes to tube,R2R and i2s I have notice that the measurement are not telling the all story. I don't know if one day we will able to explain why, but on many devices that where measured to be lesser than other I heard differently, and so many others. in a blind test I can tell the difference. and in many cases it sounded spectacular. so instead of fighting and being cynical. maybe we could try to join forces to understand why so many people can here something that measurements don't.

Neuroscience has you covered for the most part.

Audio gear can definitely sound different, but the night-and-day variety will always have blindingly obvious deviations from each other in measurements. Or they have knobhead choises of input or output impedances that gives god knows what kind of load interactions. There's never a great mystery.

From a technical standpoint, the odds of I2S vs. USB having an even remotely audible difference, is about the same as making your tap water taste better by having your plumbing made of solid gold. Dismissing is as cognitive bias (*), out of hand, is by far the most reasonable thing to do.

* Or a faulty test procedure. Lack of proper level matching is always suspect #1.
 
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fabien32

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Could you expound on the definition/meaning of “Absolute hearing” please. How was the testing done and how long ago did this test take place? Do you have the Audiogram that should have been produced as a result of this test? I am intrigued and simply wish to learn something new today.
You can read all about it in Wikipedia.
I am even going to give you the link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch
 
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