Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[ahofer]

signposting

Fair. You mean put it in my signature line? Seems a bit windy for that. But there ya go.

I just wanted something I didn't have to type every time.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

See my signature, please.

Who reads those things?

 

[ahofer]

Who reads those things?

Good question. But we only need to point people there who *need* to read it.

 

[Newman]

Fair. You mean put it in my signature line? Seems a bit windy for that. But there ya go.

I just wanted something I didn't have to type every time.

I didn’t mean ‘signature-posting’ by ‘signposting’. I actually meant posting as normal but flagging it with introductory words, eg, “Your comment warrants my standard cut/paste reply, to wit:-” and then your pasted words.

Then we all know not to expect any specific variations to your previous posts.

 

[Galliardist]

Who reads those things?

Nobody reading this on a phone, for a start...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Nobody reading this on a phone, for a start...

Yep, sigs don't show up in the mobile version of this forum.

 

[GaryH]

Nobody reading this on a phone, for a start...

Try rotating your phone to landscape

 

[Galliardist]

Try rotating your phone to landscape

!
Well I never.
Has it always been like that?

 

[Newman]

!
Well I never.
Has it always been like that?

LOL

It is like when turning an iPhone to landscape when using the Calculator app, it suddenly becomes a Scientific Calculator. Who woulda guessed?

 

[Rja4000]

I still have mine. Plus a couple spare sets of tubes to keep it working.
View attachment 247798

There are things you may measure with those that you may just not with a digital scope.

As an example, to measure the actual sensor read time on a modern mirrorless camera.

How fast is the Sony a9 electronic shutter? - the last word

This is the fifth in a series of posts on the Sony a9. The series starts here. The biggest news about the a9 is the electronic shutter. Sony says it's fast, but they don't say how fast? Is it only half-fast? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) The electronic shutters on previous Sony a7x cameras have scan...

blog.kasson.com

(This site is, in my view, one of those I consider similar in their approach to Audiosciencereview for photography. You may count photonstophotos.net. And also lensrentals.com -when they were doing serious MTF measurements on multiple lens samples- and Dxomark.com, even if those two have a commercial goal)

 

[DonR]

There are things you may measure with those that you may just not with a digital scope.

As an example, to measure the actual sensor read time on a modern mirrorless camera.

How fast is the Sony a9 electronic shutter? - the last word

This is the fifth in a series of posts on the Sony a9. The series starts here. The biggest news about the a9 is the electronic shutter. Sony says it's fast, but they don't say how fast? Is it only half-fast? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) The electronic shutters on previous Sony a7x cameras have scan...

blog.kasson.com

(This site is, in my view, one of those I consider similar in their approach to Audiosciencereview for photography. You may count lensrentals.com -when they were doing serious MTF measurements on multiple lens samples-, photonstophotos.net and Dxomark.com)

Everyone should have at least one analog CRO. Just don't tell Mr Carlson.... he has more than one.

 

[presence]

Thank you all for reply, and, yes I'm a mastering engineer, but no need to boost own ego here, quite opposite I think. For sure you can get an AI mastering as a service todays modern world, but I consider them still mixbusses, and they are actally useful for that reason if you leave a desent amount of headroom for your print. Mastering is art you should know, and it incluldes the knowledge of some math and theory behind creativeness. But, most important it is a vision of the engineer, not vision of numbers. Dont get fooled yourself. By knowing your monitoring system means that you can trust it will translate to real world, so it enables you to trust your ears and the vision. Measuring comes important on gain staging and for final peak and it is done by simple VU meter. Some spectrum analyzer will help as well.

 

[presence]

You do know that recording engineers primarily listen to the music and the mix, not the gear - don't you?

Both of course. You should hear what the music/mix needs and from what you will achieve that. If you dont know how your gear sound you sound random.

 

[presence]

I think overall the topic is quite irrelevant and even provocative. We cannot live with measurements or ears only. They come together. Or is this just one of those black&white forums without the sophisticated depth in vision?

 

[Newman]

Thank you all for reply, and, yes I'm a mastering engineer, but no need to boost own ego here, quite opposite I think. For sure you can get an AI mastering as a service todays modern world, but I consider them still mixbusses, and they are actally useful for that reason if you leave a desent amount of headroom for your print. Mastering is art you should know, and it incluldes the knowledge of some math and theory behind creativeness. But, most important it is a vision of the engineer, not vision of numbers. Dont get fooled yourself. By knowing your monitoring system means that you can trust it will translate to real world, so it enables you to trust your ears and the vision. Measuring comes important on gain staging and for final peak and it is done by simple VU meter. Some spectrum analyzer will help as well.

I think you missed something, or didn't understand it.

 

[Geert]

I think overall the topic is quite irrelevant and even provocative. We cannot live with measurements or ears only. They come together. Or is this just one of those black&white forums without the sophisticated depth in vision?

This thread is a troll trap. You've passed the test. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Rja4000]

We cannot live with measurements or ears only. They come together.

They come together, for sure.
And measurements are here to support our ears.
But it's mainly a matter of methodology, and especially, of a strict, methodic, scientific, analysis of claims and beliefs.

I guess you will agree that relying on ears only will lead to a lot of wrong assertions, disillusions, and, ultimately, waste of time ?

Unless you follow a particularly strict scientific process, which means involving a panel of people and conducting a statistically significant controlled comparison, which is, almost always, unpractical... and, therefore, not done (even remotely) correctly.

Measurements do help us to quickly sort out the wrong or bad.

Then we can focus on what our ears are REALLY usefull for: the creative process.

 

[Mart68]

I am bored of being told that musicians, conductors, mixing engineers, mastering engineers, dealers, reviewers and 'experienced audiophiles' all have some sort of superior ability to analyse the quality of audio replay. There is absolutely no evidence to back up that claim, would people please stop making it?

 

[jaymusic]

For me, measurements are not the deciding factor in what I will purchase… but they are in terms of what I will not purchase … i.e. if something measures poorly it comes off the shortlist. This is especially true for expensive products.
In other words it’s a minimum standard to measure well and then, after that, I will listen to determine the best option for me.

 

[Geert]

I am bored of being told that musicians, conductors, mixing engineers, mastering engineers, dealers, reviewers and 'experienced audiophiles' all have some sort of superior ability to analyse the quality of audio replay. There is absolutely no evidence to back up that claim

How come it's only for audio that amateurs believe they're as skillful as a pro? Wouldn't you expect working with audio 8 hours a day learns you a thing or two about sound? Can you for example call the frequency of feedback for example, accurate to 1/3th of an octave? When audiophiles describe the tonality of sound it's very clear they're missing that knowledge and training.

Another example is that tests show that I (as a pro sound engineer) am far better in detecting distortion than average. I also attended different blind tests where I immediately called out issues with the test material. It took measurements to convince others of the issue. It has nothing to do with superiority. It's just 30 years of experience working with sound, which is totally different than passively listening to music.

Harman determined 'experienced listeners' can more reliably analyze and describe perceived sound, see Toole's studies. As a result they've setup a training program for their testers. There you have the evidence people can be trained to analyze audio. The same for musicians, who thanks to training are proven to be better in timing and pitch. Imagine what a pro sound engineer who's also a musician can do.