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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Overseas

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It is a pity John Yang never officially endorsed ASR opinion that all DACs measuring the same sound the same

I am not on the shamanic side. I test good measuring DACs, I keep what 'sounds' good in my system.

For ex. I could not discern a difference between internal DAC of Rotel A11 Tribute CD vs. E50. With the same ears, however, I could sense a difference between E30 vs. E50.

Read something interesting on Benchmark site about listening and measuring. They say whenever they HEAR something not explained by measurements, they TRY to figure a measurement to capture that.
 
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It is a pity John Yang never officially endorsed ASR opinion that all DACs measuring the same sound the same

I am not on the shamanic side. I test good measuring DACs, I keep what 'sounds' good in my system.

For ex. I could not discern a difference between internal DAC of Rotel A11 Tribute CD vs. E50. With the same ears, however, I could sense a difference between E30 vs. E50.

Read something interesting on Benchmark site about listening and measuring. They say whenever they HEAR something not explained by measurements, they TRY to figure a measurement to capture that.
That's a good point. Maybe we actually do not have measurements for certain sound differences. I mean, that's possible... With that said, what is also possible is that in order to justify our spendings we sometimes are prepared to hear more and that's why put more effort into listening henceforth transforming our biases into facts...
 

Blumlein 88

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I had to create an account to contribute for your discussion, but all golden-ear mixing and especially mastering engineers who has ability to feel the sweet spots know that numbers do not tell anything to your ears and how you persieve the sound in real life. Sound has more attributes. So, if you measure a SSL, Neve, Api etc. same and claim that they sound same, because your measurements do say so, you will have no future in being professional sound engineer for sure. That is a 'secret' of the best sound engineers in the world, their monitor system is the one they know by heart so it will translate and they sense the sound better than above from average ears. Development on sensitive ears can be by many reasons; genes, nature of person or a need for sensitivity development by an environmential reasons. But, it is good to know the numbers as well, and Mr. Neve was known for being good with numbers beside having the golden ears. I prefer SSL and Api a bit more but Neves are very good for 'cleaning' channels, thats why Neves pre-amps are maybe the best from all others. Thats why I also prefer Neve HP-amp. Again, clean do not mean by measurement vise.

edit; this post was moved from RNHP amp measurements..
Welcome to ASR and thank you for contributing. Do you work in the recording industry as a mixer or mastering fellow?

What measurements in this day and age can tell you is which devices are most accurate to the input. That is something you'll not be able to effectively dispute. Golden-ears aren't going to be an effective counterpoint to this. You seem to be creating a straw man writing that measurements say all the brands sound the same.

Now the assumption might be more accurate is preferred and that assumption likely is wrong. If SSL, API and Neve have a different sound that indicates at most one is accurate and the others are not. Probably all are inaccurate. Having seen measurements of at least some variants of Neve there is no measured reason to think they sound the same. Mostly because of the transformers they go thru. At the very least they alter frequency response enough to sound different from accurate. Then in use those devices usually have EQ and of course variations in EQ can sound rather different due to differences in how they are designed to work. No big surprise and measurements aren't showing they would sound the same. Quite the reverse.

I've heard the knowing monitors by heart idea before. Some truth to it. OTOH, unless the listener is using those monitors no mixing/mastering people can claim such knowledge guarantees any translation. Some people are better at making recordings that work better across more speakers than not. Measurements are not disputing that.

Research into whether people in the music business are more discriminating than civilians shows either no real difference or not much of one. Of course if you care more it probably matters in any business. However the idea they hear differences we cannot measure is in error. They may have better taste, experience and ability crafting sound more of us humans like, but that isn't in any dispute with measurements. Taking the voodoo mystery out of such things make it possible to make better products for even better sound we prefer in our music at lower prices. And you'll never change that different genre's of music, different preferences in desired sound and creativity of sculpting sound by musicians and recording people result in needs for products that can make that sound different.
 

DonR

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I had to create an account to contribute for your discussion, but all golden-ear mixing and especially mastering engineers who has ability to feel the sweet spots know that numbers do not tell anything to your ears and how you persieve the sound in real life. Sound has more attributes. So, if you measure a SSL, Neve, Api etc. same and claim that they sound same, because your measurements do say so, you will have no future in being professional sound engineer for sure. That is a 'secret' of the best sound engineers in the world, their monitor system is the one they know by heart so it will translate and they sense the sound better than above from average ears. Development on sensitive ears can be by many reasons; genes, nature of person or a need for sensitivity development by an environmential reasons. But, it is good to know the numbers as well, and Mr. Neve was known for being good with numbers beside having the golden ears. I prefer SSL and Api a bit more but Neves are very good for 'cleaning' channels, thats why Neves pre-amps are maybe the best from all others. Thats why I also prefer Neve HP-amp. Again, clean do not mean by measurement vise.

edit; this post was moved from RNHP amp measurements..
Finally, an explanation as to why most modern music sounds so terrible.
 

fpitas

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OK, I just threw away all my measuring gear.
 

NTK

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I had to create an account to contribute for your discussion, but all golden-ear mixing and especially mastering engineers who has ability to feel the sweet spots know that numbers do not tell anything to your ears and how you persieve the sound in real life. Sound has more attributes. So, if you measure a SSL, Neve, Api etc. same and claim that they sound same, because your measurements do say so, you will have no future in being professional sound engineer for sure. That is a 'secret' of the best sound engineers in the world, their monitor system is the one they know by heart so it will translate and they sense the sound better than above from average ears. Development on sensitive ears can be by many reasons; genes, nature of person or a need for sensitivity development by an environmential reasons. But, it is good to know the numbers as well, and Mr. Neve was known for being good with numbers beside having the golden ears. I prefer SSL and Api a bit more but Neves are very good for 'cleaning' channels, thats why Neves pre-amps are maybe the best from all others. Thats why I also prefer Neve HP-amp. Again, clean do not mean by measurement vise.

edit; this post was moved from RNHP amp measurements..
A couple of problems with your claims. Regarding "golden-ear mixing and mastering engineers" ...

hearing_loss.jpg



And on "knowing their monitors by heart", per Dr Griesinger (source: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/binaural_hearing.ppt) ...

freq_adaptation.png
 

fpitas

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fpitas

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Tubes help the traces bring out the fine details.
They don't have the digital glare of modern scopes, too.
 

fpitas

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Newman

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I had to create an account to contribute for your discussion, but all golden-ear mixing and especially mastering engineers who has ability to feel the sweet spots know that numbers do not tell anything to your ears and how you persieve the sound in real life. Sound has more attributes. So, if you measure a SSL, Neve, Api etc. same and claim that they sound same, because your measurements do say so, you will have no future in being professional sound engineer for sure. That is a 'secret' of the best sound engineers in the world, their monitor system is the one they know by heart so it will translate and they sense the sound better than above from average ears. Development on sensitive ears can be by many reasons; genes, nature of person or a need for sensitivity development by an environmential reasons. But, it is good to know the numbers as well, and Mr. Neve was known for being good with numbers beside having the golden ears. I prefer SSL and Api a bit more but Neves are very good for 'cleaning' channels, thats why Neves pre-amps are maybe the best from all others. Thats why I also prefer Neve HP-amp. Again, clean do not mean by measurement vise.
See post #4232 above, if you want to learn about how bad your presuppositions are.

edit; this post was moved from RNHP amp measurements..
Yes, the site owner’s policy is to move posts that repeat the same old, tired, uneducated views such as yours, from topic-specific threads to this thread which can function as a ‘catch-all’ thread and clean up the many other threads from pollution and repetition. A policy of “enough is enough”.

So, read this thread in its entirety, from page 1. If you dare.

PS Welcome to ASR. It’s a real opportunity for you to take your audio education forward in giant steps, as long as your intentions in joining were not to give us all a lesson such as your first post.

cheers
 

antcollinet

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I had to create an account to contribute for your discussion, but all golden-ear mixing and especially mastering engineers who has ability to feel the sweet spots know that numbers do not tell anything to your ears and how you persieve the sound in real life. Sound has more attributes. So, if you measure a SSL, Neve, Api etc. same and claim that they sound same, because your measurements do say so, you will have no future in being professional sound engineer for sure. That is a 'secret' of the best sound engineers in the world, their monitor system is the one they know by heart so it will translate and they sense the sound better than above from average ears. Development on sensitive ears can be by many reasons; genes, nature of person or a need for sensitivity development by an environmential reasons. But, it is good to know the numbers as well, and Mr. Neve was known for being good with numbers beside having the golden ears. I prefer SSL and Api a bit more but Neves are very good for 'cleaning' channels, thats why Neves pre-amps are maybe the best from all others. Thats why I also prefer Neve HP-amp. Again, clean do not mean by measurement vise.

edit; this post was moved from RNHP amp measurements..
You do know that recording engineers primarily listen to the music and the mix, not the gear - don't you?
 

ahofer

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I had to create an account to contribute for your discussion, but all golden-ear mixing and especially mastering engineers who has ability to feel the sweet spots know that numbers do not tell anything to your ears and how you persieve the sound in real life. Sound has more attributes. So, if you measure a SSL, Neve, Api etc. same and claim that they sound same, because your measurements do say so, you will have no future in being professional sound engineer for sure. That is a 'secret' of the best sound engineers in the world, their monitor system is the one they know by heart so it will translate and they sense the sound better than above from average ears. Development on sensitive ears can be by many reasons; genes, nature of person or a need for sensitivity development by an environmential reasons. But, it is good to know the numbers as well, and Mr. Neve was known for being good with numbers beside having the golden ears. I prefer SSL and Api a bit more but Neves are very good for 'cleaning' channels, thats why Neves pre-amps are maybe the best from all others. Thats why I also prefer Neve HP-amp. Again, clean do not mean by measurement vise.

edit; this post was moved from RNHP amp measurements..
I have a standard response to this:
Welcome newcomers to ASR. It's possible you've made an unsupported assertion or a scientifically implausible claim that will cause most people in this science-oriented forum to react with skepticism (or scepticism if they are in the U.K.). Please don't take the reactions as overtly hostile - most of us are just frustrated with the many newcomers who have clearly come here just to "troll". Please do engage with the membership to find an objective, controlled method to support or discard your hypothesis. Our membership includes recovering subjectivists, many engineers/scientists, and several famous figures in the world of audio engineering research. Generally, they can cite scientific, controlled research to support their views. Most believe in the fallibility of human sighted judgement, and think blind testing and measurements are critical ingredients for assessing equipment contributions to sound quality. We'd love to have you, but if all you want is a) to fight or b) to have others cheerlead for your subjective views or anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest you will be happier elsewhere.
 
Last edited:

Newman

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Welcome to ASR. You've made an unsupported assertion or a scientifically implausible claim that will cause most people in this science-oriented forum to react with skepticism (or scepticism if they are in the U.K.). Please don't take the reactions as overtly hostile - most of us are just frustrated with the many newcomers who have clearly come here just to "troll". Please do engage with the membership to find an objective, controlled method to support or discard your hypothesis. Our membership includes recovering subjectivists, many engineers/scientists, and several famous figures in the world of audio engineering researcher. Generally, they can cite scientific, controlled research to support their views. Most believe in the fallibility of human sighted judgement, and think blind testing and measurements are critical ingredients for assessing equipment contributions to sound quality. We'd love to have you, but if all you want is a) to fight or b) to have others cheerlead for your subjective views or anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest you will be happier elsewhere.
LOL

LOL

LOL

I get it, and I get why. But how about saving the rest of us by signposting your standard copy/paste response. Please.
 
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