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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

tomelex

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CAS11 please google and visit whats best forum , they are looking forward to your membership.
 

SIY

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High source impedance sound (i.e., frequency response variations due to interaction with speaker impedance) is not specific to tubes.

And to characterize it as something brand specific ("C-J amps sound warm, ARC amps sound cold...") is beyond ridiculous. The "sound" will change from speaker to speaker, and a high source impedance will give the same "sound" regardless of what logo is on the faceplate or what active device is inside the black box.
 

Blumlein 88

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High source impedance sound (i.e., frequency response variations due to interaction with speaker impedance) is not specific to tubes.

And to characterize it as something brand specific ("C-J amps sound warm, ARC amps sound cold...") is beyond ridiculous. The "sound" will change from speaker to speaker, and a high source impedance will give the same "sound" regardless of what logo is on the faceplate or what active device is inside the black box.
But what happens when the box is gold or silver?
 

Ken Tajalli

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High source impedance sound (i.e., frequency response variations due to interaction with speaker impedance) is not specific to tubes.

And to characterize it as something brand specific ("C-J amps sound warm, ARC amps sound cold...") is beyond ridiculous. The "sound" will change from speaker to speaker, and a high source impedance will give the same "sound" regardless of what logo is on the faceplate or what active device is inside the black box.
If you were referring to the examples being discussed , they were pre-amps.
So although you are correct, but it doesn't apply in this case.
 

CAS II

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I am not doubting the intelligence of anyone. In fact I would love to be an engineer but there is no way that I could be one. I do not spend $5,000 on a cable, that is absurd and I do not see how that could be justified and I would have no choice to call those listeners Audiofools which is why I make most of my own cables and I modify most of my equipment.

If there was any point in this it would be to express my belief that prejudice may prevent others from deciding for themselves what may or may not make a difference in the sound of their system.

To me changes in the sound of a system are like peeling an onion little layer by layer. Sometimes there are several layers at once while other times there is but one layer and layers can be added back and that is what I love about this hobby and it is bothersome to be told that it is all in my imagination as if I were crazy.

For example the Furutech NCF Clear Line. No, there are no wires connected inside from one terminal to another the effect could not be measured.

However, I have a way of testing changes to my system and it involves listening for certain words or instruments in certain songs that were once unintelligible are now crystal clear. So perhaps others have a similar test.

I just wanted to express my opinion and not cause a war of words. Now if anyone is interested I will bet $1,000 to any who is willing to come to my house in Houston and stand behind my equipment rack while I am turned the opposite direction and or blindfolded while they plug and unplug the Furutech NCF Clear Line. If I am not correct when whether the Clear Line is plugged or unplugged I will pay $1,000 if I am correct I will collect my $1,000.
 

Doodski

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I am not doubting the intelligence of anyone. In fact I would love to be an engineer but there is no way that I could be one. I do not spend $5,000 on a cable, that is absurd and I do not see how that could be justified and I would have no choice to call those listeners Audiofools which is why I make most of my own cables and I modify most of my equipment.

If there was any point in this it would be to express my belief that prejudice may prevent others from deciding for themselves what may or may not make a difference in the sound of their system.

To me changes in the sound of a system are like peeling an onion little layer by layer. Sometimes there are several layers at once while other times there is but one layer and layers can be added back and that is what I love about this hobby and it is bothersome to be told that it is all in my imagination as if I were crazy.

For example the Furutech NCF Clear Line. No, there are no wires connected inside from one terminal to another the effect could not be measured.

However, I have a way of testing changes to my system and it involves listening for certain words or instruments in certain songs that were once unintelligible are now crystal clear. So perhaps others have a similar test.

I just wanted to express my opinion and not cause a war of words. Now if anyone is interested I will bet $1,000 to any who is willing to come to my house in Houston and stand behind my equipment rack while I am turned the opposite direction and or blindfolded while they plug and unplug the Furutech NCF Clear Line. If I am not correct when whether the Clear Line is plugged or unplugged I will pay $1,000 if I am correct I will collect my $1,000.
I hope you plan on putting that in a money order and giving the money order to a neutral party for distribution after the test is done. It's kinda sad that you have such faith in snake oil but it is what it is. It's physically impossible for this thing to change the AC mains in such a way that the sound changes for the better. :D
 

MAB

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I am not doubting the intelligence of anyone. In fact I would love to be an engineer but there is no way that I could be one. I do not spend $5,000 on a cable, that is absurd and I do not see how that could be justified and I would have no choice to call those listeners Audiofools which is why I make most of my own cables and I modify most of my equipment.

If there was any point in this it would be to express my belief that prejudice may prevent others from deciding for themselves what may or may not make a difference in the sound of their system.

To me changes in the sound of a system are like peeling an onion little layer by layer. Sometimes there are several layers at once while other times there is but one layer and layers can be added back and that is what I love about this hobby and it is bothersome to be told that it is all in my imagination as if I were crazy.

For example the Furutech NCF Clear Line. No, there are no wires connected inside from one terminal to another the effect could not be measured.

However, I have a way of testing changes to my system and it involves listening for certain words or instruments in certain songs that were once unintelligible are now crystal clear. So perhaps others have a similar test.

I just wanted to express my opinion and not cause a war of words. Now if anyone is interested I will bet $1,000 to any who is willing to come to my house in Houston and stand behind my equipment rack while I am turned the opposite direction and or blindfolded while they plug and unplug the Furutech NCF Clear Line. If I am not correct when whether the Clear Line is plugged or unplugged I will pay $1,000 if I am correct I will collect my $1,000.
Post a video!
 

BDWoody

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Another bunch of posts moved in.

I do not spend $5,000 on a cable, that is absurd and I do not see how that could be justified and I would have no choice to call those listeners Audiofools

Why $5k? Why not $200, or $10k? Do you not believe they make it sound better? I could find lots of posts telling you about the lifted veils their $10k cable brings. Are they lying? They are audiofools?

am wondering if there is a website for the “audiofools” who DO believe cables, etc. make a difference spend their time criticizing those who do NOT believe certain cables, etc. make a difference?

Have you spent much time on other fora? Seems we are the flat earthers, general miscreants, and whatever other lovely descriptions go to those who try to spoil the hi-fi money grab.

what if someday someone determines there is a way to measure why some cables sound better to one person while the same cables sound identical to another person even though each cable has identical measurements using current knowledge. Then wouldn’t those who call others audiofools feel foolish themselves?

That seems like a lot to hold out hope for, especially given that no one on the planet has yet actually demonstrated what you describe. Maybe we can start with that, then look for what we are missing. Claims aren't evidence... That said, most here would be damned excited to find that there is something yet to be explored, but since all we get are more words and no evidence, nothing to explore so far.
Or perhaps another possible analogy would be religion.

Let's just not go there. At all.
 

Ken Tajalli

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Someday someone may be able to figure it out how those stones were moved and what if someday someone determines there is a way to measure why some cables sound better to one person while the same cables sound identical to another person even though each cable has identical measurements using current knowledge. Then wouldn’t those who call others audiofools feel foolish themselves?
Actually they have!
And the ones who did it are in exotic cable sales business.
It is mostly psychology, powers of persuasion.
Electrically, you can feed a signal into a 50m length of standard cable, compare what goes in and what comes out. The difference is nothing, when there is, it is mostly due to termination than the cable itself.
A bad cable, substandard cable can be detrimental, but past a certain goal-post they can not sound better.
Personally. I use 1.5mm square, solid core cabling used for domestic wiring ring. Believe me, I did try fancy cables, the wiring ring cable was better or as good as.
£50 for a 100m roll. I had some off-cuts.

1669459886663.png
 

Killingbeans

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To me changes in the sound of a system are like peeling an onion little layer by layer. Sometimes there are several layers at once while other times there is but one layer and layers can be added back and that is what I love about this hobby and it is bothersome to be told that it is all in my imagination as if I were crazy.

I often get slightly depressed when I think about the myriad of traits evolution has given us, that was beneficial in much simpler times, but f##ks us over in the world we've created with technology and global communication. But that's just a sad truth of existence. You can choose to process that knowledge in a healthy way, or you can be in denial and stay blissfully ignorant.

Personally I don't mind being bothered by occasional reminders of how misleading our senses can be. It's the price to pay for reliable judgement.
 

BDWoody

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Personally I don't mind being bothered by occasional reminders of how misleading our senses can be. It's the price to pay for reliable judgement.

Just saw this one recently for the first time.

 

Galliardist

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I have had a difficult time thinking of an analogy but take for example, megalithic stones that weigh 100 tons that cannot be lifted by any modern equipment yet those stones were moved many miles thousands of years ago and there is no explanation for how it was done. It is a subject I enjoy thinking about and I have my theories but I would not want to waste time arguing with someone about it.

Someday someone may be able to figure it out how those stones were moved
It's called "experimental archaeology". And they have moved stones of those sizes using only items known to be available to the peoples who did move them. No need for magic amulets, telekenesis, aliens or time-travelling bulldozers.

Actually, it's a quite good analogy when I think about it, even if not in the way you meant.
 

Mart68

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It's called "experimental archaeology". And they have moved stones of those sizes using only items known to be available to the peoples who did move them. No need for magic amulets, telekenesis, aliens or time-travelling bulldozers.

Actually, it's a quite good analogy when I think about it, even if not in the way you meant.
They have moved stones of a couple of tons but 100 tons? And we know some pre-Roman civilisation moved 800 ton stones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek_Stones

To date, nobody knows how they did that. So maybe not the best analogy.
 

SIY

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If you were referring to the examples being discussed , they were pre-amps.
Sorry, should have read more closely, but I'm on the road. :D

With preamps, the claims are even sillier.
 

Ken Tajalli

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Sorry, should have read more closely, but I'm on the road. :D

With preamps, the claims are even sillier.
Actually, if one can hear a tube preamp, it is surely doing something wrong, unless it is the other preamp is doing something wrong.
 

Ricardus

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However, I have a way of testing changes to my system and it involves listening for certain words or instruments in certain songs that were once unintelligible are now crystal clear. So perhaps others have a similar test.

Why do you believe this form of testing is immune from our brain's built in biases? Spoilers: IT'S NOT.

I just wanted to express my opinion and not cause a war of words. Now if anyone is interested I will bet $1,000 to any who is willing to come to my house in Houston and stand behind my equipment rack while I am turned the opposite direction and or blindfolded while they plug and unplug the Furutech NCF Clear Line. If I am not correct when whether the Clear Line is plugged or unplugged I will pay $1,000 if I am correct I will collect my $1,000.

Would someone please do this? Someone in the Houston area just so we have a clear cut example that people like this are wrong? I mean chief huckster Paul M got challenged by Ethan Winer and wouldn't do it. We need to find away to get these people to show up to double blind tests. This guy is offering. But we need to settle on a method, it needs to be video taped, and there needs to be other witnesses.
 

hucifer

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They have moved stones of a couple of tons but 100 tons? And we know some pre-Roman civilisation moved 800 ton stones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek_Stones

To date, nobody knows how they did that. So maybe not the best analogy.

No one knows exactly how they did that, but that isn't to say there aren't plausible explanations. This detailed debunk of claims made about Baalbek contains several reasonable explanations about how it could have been achieved by methods available at that time.

Actually, it's a quite good analogy when I think about it, even if not in way you meant.

I was going to say the same thing - what's the old saying about the most simple explanation being the most likely?
:)
 
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ahofer

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I respect those of you who have the knowledge and expertise to scientifically measure electronics, but not everything can be measured or explained.
Welcome to ASR. I see you have made an unsupported assertion. You will likely receive many responses indicating as much. Please do not take it as hostile, but it is the nature of this forum to deal in scientific research and testable hypotheses. Do stick around and engage with the membership as they have a fluency in research and varied industry backgrounds. However, if you just want to dig in and tout an unsupported subjective view, you will not be happy here and should probably leave. It will become increasingly hostile.

More directly, nearly every other audio forum on the internet is subjective, overcome by people who claim to hear things that do not seem to survive research or controlled testing. I'm having a hard time believing you don't know that, but try Audiogon, for instance, for a deeply subjective milieu.

Personally, I found your comment about enjoying music a bit offensive. My wife and I are both former musicians, and I listen to music for several hours every day, and go to concerts at Lincoln Center weekly. This site has really helped my get the most out of my home system. I feel that you assume a lot, pejoratively. Perhaps that was not your intent.

As for religion, it typically requires faith, or the belief in something without testing or evidence. Among the beliefs here, what fits that description? Perhaps you think we are a cult? Not a great way to commence to persuade or understand, IMO.
 
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Ricardus

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I have had a difficult time thinking of an analogy but take for example, megalithic stones that weigh 100 tons that cannot be lifted by any modern equipment yet those stones were moved many miles thousands of years ago and there is no explanation for how it was done. It is a subject I enjoy thinking about and I have my theories but I would not want to waste time arguing with someone about it.

So the answer is magic?

Archimedes would disagree.

Someday someone may be able to figure it out how those stones were moved

It's already been done. As I said, Archimedes would disagree. There's a cool video out there of a guy named Wally building his own Stonehenge, ALONE.

 

MattHooper

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Actually, if one can hear a tube preamp, it is surely doing something wrong, unless it is the other preamp is doing something wrong.

Indeed, that makes sense to me.

The CJ preamp had always seemed to have the characteristics I described, and which are in line with what plenty of CJ owners have described. In weeks of back and forth between the LA4 and CJ preamp, the CJ preamp seemed to have some of the classic "tube" characteristics vs the totally neutral solid state - the Benchmark sounding a bit cleaner, more pure and clean, the tube preamp thickening of the sound, but a bit more "relaxed" in terms of upper frequency "bite," 'warmer' rounder sonic images, etc. And when I did the blind test it was those characteristics that stood out, allowing me to easily and reliably discern the CJ from the Benchmark LA4.

In my thread on the test, a number of ASR members weighed in saying that my telling the two apart blinded are not surprising given the nature of tube gear and the difference in measurements of those two preamp. Even well-respected member with technical chops, pkane, remarked that in the past he'd tried some CJ preamps and under blind tests could also tell the difference (with part of his description of the difference mirroring mine).

So I try to keep the big picture in mind when looking at responses. Just as it is unwise to take the opinion of a single expert in a field as the last word and definitive on a subject, I don't take the opinion of a single ASR member as the last word either. And of course, being technically knowledgeable isn't a prophylactic against motivated reasoning (a lot of which can bee seen on ASR...as everywhere else in life, since we are human, hence good to have one's 'grain of salt' on hand).
 
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