Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Trell]

Ears (lots of them) were used by Dr. Toole (and others) to get us where we are today, and that was done in a scientific way (as much as that is possible). Now we know many things that allow us to draw some conclusions from measurements and data, that's for speakers, for electronics ears are needed only to enjoy the music, measurements can tell you most (near all) of the story.

As for trusting your ears, have a look at the wine, violins and what have you blind tests and the result there. Here is a simple video of something similar:

He’s a troll.

 

[ThatDudeThere]

I'm not saying we don't need measurements. I'm saying that they should be 10% of the decision and not 90-100%. Sanity

 

[kongwee]

but but but 20 student audio engineering in AES can't hear the difference..........

 

[Doodski]

@ThatDudeThere your video at the 14 minute mark makes zero sense. "Because of this then that." Yeah real scientific.

 

[MAB]

If you're gonna tell me that going from a 50 watt amp to 200 watt amp made a big difference, and you can hear it, agree.
If you tell me that you prefer a one speaker over another, I would probably also agree.
If you tell me you can hear your cables, or changing wall outlets makes a difference, or cable lifters, or cryo, or moon rocks, or other stuff that is scientifically proven nonsense, and tell me there are special mystical non measurable things your ears can hear.. then you need to find the door as fast as possible.
Otherwise, welcome!

 

[Mart68]

Driven by his unshaken belief in the god-emperor of his ears, another kamikaze troll approaches the USS 'ASR' through a blaze of triple A.

Will he hit the flight deck or plunge into the sea?

 

[VintageFlanker]

Those who base decisions on measurements alone, and not ears think they are being scientific. It is actually the opposite. Since we hear with our ears, and not measuring tools, you must not leave out the most obvious measuring tool.

Makes perfect sense! Heck of a job doing a research !

Did you consider submitting this actual post to be peer reviewed? Maybe you could win some AES Award for this.

even though I already know what happens.

That your obvious trolling will be caught by the moderators after you wasted everyone's time? Then you could complain at Audiogon or SBAF after being banned by the Cult for telling the truth?

 

[caught gesture]

Those who base decisions on measurements alone, and not ears think they are being scientific. It is actually the opposite. Since we hear with our ears, and not measuring tools, you must not leave out the most obvious measuring tool.

Our ears are a conduit for data. The ears limit the bandwidth of sound. Our brains process the data. It is your brain doing the listening. The brain can be wholly inaccurate in some scenarios. The promotion and sale of most audio equipment actively utilizes an area of inaccuracy as a result of cognitive biases.

 

[dpturner]

to not split an infinitive is a good thing

 

[Rednaxela]

Please continue the conversation here.

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Those who base decisions on measurements alone, and not ears think they are being scientific. It is actually the opposite. Since we hear with our ears, and not measuring tools, you must not leave out the most obvious measuring tool.

You are of course 100% correct.
Just be sure that you remain true to your own philosophy by ensuring that when you use your ears you are only using your ears

 

[Thomas_A]

I think Amir have stated listening as important, especially for headphones. But speakers apply as well.

Electronics, I see no reason. You can measure it and even use simulated loads to cover speakers with ”difficult loads”.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You are of course 100% correct.
Just be sure that you remain true to your own philosophy by ensuring that when you use your ears you are only using your ears

I don't know. I'm getting old enough I might want to use someone else's ears. Play them some music, change something, and find out if they hear a difference or not. See if they can do this like say 20 times in a row. After it is over I'll let them know what was being changed. I'll be able to tell them if they can hear Schiit sound or not.

 

[peanuts2]

after 20 years of trying various amplifiers, i am absolute certain there is a tube sound to many valve amplifiers. i find it funny that alot of people in here say its just a placebo effect. sure alot of reviewers do have ridiculous claims, but you cant simply discard them all.

 

[sq225917]

I imagine he's already moved on to pastures new and the thread cam be closed.

 

[sq225917]

after 20 years of trying various amplifiers, i am absolute certain there is a tube sound to many valve amplifiers. i find it funny that alot of people in here say its just a placebo effect. sure alot of reviewers do have ridiculous claims, but you cant simply discard them all.

I'm not aware of anyone ever saying that valve amps can't have an obvious and audible distortion profile as well as significant load dependence and different clipping characteristic to SS amps.

Of course, some dont, but valve amps with 0.001% distortion are few and far between.

 

[Blumlein 88]

after 20 years of trying various amplifiers, i am absolute certain there is a tube sound to many valve amplifiers. i find it funny that alot of people in here say its just a placebo effect. sure alot of reviewers do have ridiculous claims, but you cant simply discard them all.

I haven't tested this blind, but I largely agree. I know they can measurably effect the response of ESL's with their widely varying output impedance. The effect is well over a decibel in the bass and treble for most such pairings. So you would expect that alone to be audible. Such an idea is not controversial.

 

[killdozzer]

Those who base decisions on measurements alone, and not ears think they are being scientific. It is actually the opposite. Since we hear with our ears, and not measuring tools, you must not leave out the most obvious measuring tool.

Can we have this quote in the dictionary next to the entry "troll"?

 

[killdozzer]

If you're gonna tell me that going from a 50 watt amp to 200 watt amp made a big difference, and you can hear it, agree.
If you tell me that you prefer a one speaker over another, I would probably also agree.
If you tell me you can hear your cables, or changing wall outlets makes a difference, or cable lifters, or cryo, or moon rocks, or other stuff that is scientifically proven nonsense, and tell me there are special mystical non measurable things your ears can hear.. then you need to find the door as fast as possible.
Otherwise, welcome!

But first example is true only if the speaker and your listening conditions require it. Otherwise you just get a heap of idle watts.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

@ThatDudeThere your approach is that of a troll. You seem to be deliberately trying to get a reaction rather than reasoned engineering based discussion.

If you really want to understand, have a look here:

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com