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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

ahofer

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when the music is playing to me it's not as bad as I would of thought it would be based on these measurements and personally I do not hate it and it does not in any way make me want to not want to listen anymore.
The differences in audio equipment are pretty overblown. This doesn't shock me at all.

I used to like listening in the car, which is such a compromised audio environment. Since I got a Subaru, though, I don't. It distorts too much getting above the ambient noise level on anything but newly paved roads.
 

MattHooper

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You might be over-reaching with your conclusions from your experience.

First I can agree with you in some of this. Tape machines, the source of recorded music for 50 years, only have a Sinad of something in the mid 40 db range. Even pro units. With noise reduction in use you will have better SNR, but the THD will still rarely be less than -50 db if ever. Those as a source even with the finest cleanest gear otherwise can be highly highly enjoyable. It is my opinion, with some considerable justification, that a Sinad of -80 db is indistinguishable from anything better when listening to music at least 98% of the time. I've written many times the old adage that frequency response is 85% of high fidelity again with some justification. In a sense we are far more sensitive to minor FR differences than we are to relatively high distortion. For over a decade I only used vacuum tube power amps.

Transducers (tape heads, phono cartridges, microphones, headphones and speakers) are the fidelity bottleneck and the main source of any sound character that isn't transparent.

So where I think you overreach is thinking because you found sound not enjoyable when a Benchmark amp or other clean amp was in use that an overly clean presentation is inherently less enjoyable (assuming I am not misinterpreting your thinking). Could be many things like which speakers were in use. Or your level of enjoyment was less than anticipated and gave you a poor opinion of the Benchmark even if it seemed fine. Or possibly your preferences are not for fidelity (which is okay, we do this because music is fun). Or a less clear system covers some issues in a recording that a clean clear system exposes and that ruins your experience. And yes, if that ruins your experience your experience is not wrong. However the issue is the recording and not how clean the amp is. You can have highly enjoyable experiences with really clean gear.

So on a measurement oriented forum, if a given piece of gear costs $5000 and has -80 db SINAD it is judged not a good option. Maybe it will in no way hurt the sound. When you can get SOTA performance for $500 it is a poor deal. Often the $5k unit also comes with some dubious reasons that it sounds better despite measuring mediocre. Usually those dubious reasons are actually just flat out wrong. A really fancy $5k unit with some good story attached will find plenty of accolades among reviewers and consumers. One is likely to be affected by that. Anyone, all of us. Measurements however are not affected.

A device with -120 db SINAD, flat frequency response to beyond 20 khz and no peaks in ultrasonic response is beyond reproach. It will not add to or subtract from the sound of the source signal in a way that is audible. Less good gear may be as good audibly, but you have no doubt with the best of gear. That does not mean if you don't have SOTA performance a device is junk or that one unit being -90 db SINAD will sound better if you swap to one that is -120 db SINAD. The middling numbers need more nuance in understanding to know if they sound transparent or not.

I think a sensible approach in current times is to have very good clean setup every step of the way up to the speakers. And speakers will make the most difference in what you hear (or headphones). If you want a particular type of non-super fidelity sound, DSP can provide most anything you want. Yes, none of this means "junky" systems cannot be enjoyable. If you rely upon a "dirty" system to cover up mistakes in speakers or recordings you will find really good recordings don't sound as good. In the past you may have needed to pick your poisons and work around it. Now one can for a not tremendous amount of money get a clean system, and adjust it for less than great recordings or to a limited extent less than great speakers.

Looking back, until the introduction of CD, all of our sources were no better than -50 db SINAD. Reel tape, cassette tape, 8 track tape, LP vinyl, and FM radio. Those sources even now can be enjoyable to listen to all day long.

Here is another post from a few hours ago with some links that might interest you. One is Distort software from pkane here on ASR. It lets you adjust levels of distortion and each harmonic any way you please. You can use it to play your music files and see what kinds of distortion you can hear. The other links have online tests to determine what levels of distortion are audible to you. HINT HINT: you aren't likely to find you can hear -80 db THD vs lower levels.


Blumlein 88: Just want to say, I really enjoy your posts!
 

MacCali

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The differences in audio equipment are pretty overblown. This doesn't shock me at all.

I used to like listening in the car, which is such a compromised audio environment. Since I got a Subaru, though, I don't. It distorts too much getting above the ambient noise level on anything but newly paved roads.
It's honestly a combination of things, I always wondered why Gene at audioholics would always say -95db is sufficient for quality sound. For a long time, after coming to ASR that that was nonsense. It's not that Amir is incorrect, but if you really want literally world class performance you want -115.

My experience/findings were just extremely unexpected, first I never imagined the amp was tested. I bought it for 20 dollars, and it was for the purpose of learning and experience. I have two other amps I would use as well on this secondary setup. I took it home and set it up and I was quite pleased. I actually found out the amp itself was a third party produced amp, which is like a company already manufactured and now is selling units to another company who just branded their name on it. When I was looking up that information that is when I found the review and I was like hmmmmm how is it possible that up until this point I did not consider this worst possible thing I ever heard when it is probably in the top 5 or even top 3 worst amps built after 2010.

Similarly, I had a member on here point out they had a band camp amp by nelson pass, which is DIY, and I think that one had a -36db sinad and they to pointed out even as an objective person they did enjoy that amp.

I will say, and again I am not expert, and maybe @Blumlein 88 can comment on this or provide his feedback. That when the music is playing it washes out some of all the terrible attributes even though it is clearly audible even when the music is playing. When the amp is not playing any music you can hear all of that the measurements show, but once the music starts it seems like even though it is still present the effect is being mitigated. In comparison to a great measuring system you only hear the music and nothing else.

Honestly the irony about cars is I always told people to get the best sound in the car on a scale of +/- 5 is +1 bass -2 mid and +3 treble, and this is literally in every single car I have ever been in with stock systems. The thing that's ironic is that is almost V shaped and I do not like headphones or stereo with a similar signature. Also, these settings were specifically for playing extremely loud without getting nasty, at lower volumes it's hard to notice but those settings get me the best clarity, effects, and no distortion. *also note if you have a fader I always shift the fader -1 or 2 to the rear, and I would choose which one by listening at loud volumes to what I essentially think is an unbeatable car audio experience with a stock system
 

MacCali

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You might be over-reaching with your conclusions from your experience.

First I can agree with you in some of this. Tape machines, the source of recorded music for 50 years, only have a Sinad of something in the mid 40 db range. Even pro units. With noise reduction in use you will have better SNR, but the THD will still rarely be less than -50 db if ever. Those as a source even with the finest cleanest gear otherwise can be highly highly enjoyable. It is my opinion, with some considerable justification, that a Sinad of -80 db is indistinguishable from anything better when listening to music at least 98% of the time. I've written many times the old adage that frequency response is 85% of high fidelity again with some justification. In a sense we are far more sensitive to minor FR differences than we are to relatively high distortion. For over a decade I only used vacuum tube power amps.

Transducers (tape heads, phono cartridges, microphones, headphones and speakers) are the fidelity bottleneck and the main source of any sound character that isn't transparent.

So where I think you overreach is thinking because you found sound not enjoyable when a Benchmark amp or other clean amp was in use that an overly clean presentation is inherently less enjoyable (assuming I am not misinterpreting your thinking). Could be many things like which speakers were in use. Or your level of enjoyment was less than anticipated and gave you a poor opinion of the Benchmark even if it seemed fine. Or possibly your preferences are not for fidelity (which is okay, we do this because music is fun). Or a less clear system covers some issues in a recording that a clean clear system exposes and that ruins your experience. And yes, if that ruins your experience your experience is not wrong. However the issue is the recording and not how clean the amp is. You can have highly enjoyable experiences with really clean gear.

So on a measurement oriented forum, if a given piece of gear costs $5000 and has -80 db SINAD it is judged not a good option. Maybe it will in no way hurt the sound. When you can get SOTA performance for $500 it is a poor deal. Often the $5k unit also comes with some dubious reasons that it sounds better despite measuring mediocre. Usually those dubious reasons are actually just flat out wrong. A really fancy $5k unit with some good story attached will find plenty of accolades among reviewers and consumers. One is likely to be affected by that. Anyone, all of us. Measurements however are not affected.

A device with -120 db SINAD, flat frequency response to beyond 20 khz and no peaks in ultrasonic response is beyond reproach. It will not add to or subtract from the sound of the source signal in a way that is audible. Less good gear may be as good audibly, but you have no doubt with the best of gear. That does not mean if you don't have SOTA performance a device is junk or that one unit being -90 db SINAD will sound better if you swap to one that is -120 db SINAD. The middling numbers need more nuance in understanding to know if they sound transparent or not.

I think a sensible approach in current times is to have very good clean setup every step of the way up to the speakers. And speakers will make the most difference in what you hear (or headphones). If you want a particular type of non-super fidelity sound, DSP can provide most anything you want. Yes, none of this means "junky" systems cannot be enjoyable. If you rely upon a "dirty" system to cover up mistakes in speakers or recordings you will find really good recordings don't sound as good. In the past you may have needed to pick your poisons and work around it. Now one can for a not tremendous amount of money get a clean system, and adjust it for less than great recordings or to a limited extent less than great speakers.

Looking back, until the introduction of CD, all of our sources were no better than -50 db SINAD. Reel tape, cassette tape, 8 track tape, LP vinyl, and FM radio. Those sources even now can be enjoyable to listen to all day long.

Here is another post from a few hours ago with some links that might interest you. One is Distort software from pkane here on ASR. It lets you adjust levels of distortion and each harmonic any way you please. You can use it to play your music files and see what kinds of distortion you can hear. The other links have online tests to determine what levels of distortion are audible to you. HINT HINT: you aren't likely to find you can hear -80 db THD vs lower levels.

*If anyone is confused what this ramble is all about it is stemming from the Chord M scaler review thread which may provide some more insight.

Extremely fair statements so far, I will only comment or give my thoughts on something that I may disagree with if anything there is based on what I said.

Yes, I think based on your second paragraph what you are saying is accurate. However, my rebuttal and the reason why I said the things I did in my "first" thing to preach was that even some of the cleanest units do sound great. Amir suggested the D70s when I was in search for a new AKM dac, and it's honestly by far one of the most outstanding dacs I have ever heard and measures insanely. That's why I pointed out that it's something they are doing when implementing it which basically tints the sound.

The thing that's crazy is we just had the NAD M23 reviewed by Audioholics, not sure if you got a chance to see that. But to get to the point I demo'd the M33 and I was really pleased with that setup even though I have been a skeptic on class D amps. Personally my favorite sound is darker/warmer whatever you wish to call it. This is why for me Class A is better and it may not even be because of Class A topology, I do not know. Next is tubes, or in a tie with A/B design.

I recall that somewhere in a review they said the M23 and the M33 share the same amplification, then the review came out and I just actually purchased the M23 strictly based on its objective and subjective performance. To me it sounded like all the benefits of a class D amp but with a touch of warmth/musicality.

The thing is man I really try to keep an open mind, even when I hear something and I do not like it doesn't mean I will just solidify that opinion and avoid rehearing it the next chance I get. So far there's been numerous products I have heard 3, 4, 5 times and that 5th time it was like bingo. This product and this chain together made great synergy or whatever it was and it did now sound pleasant or amazing.

I mention that the reason why I think I do not like the AHB2 is because it is so damn clean and doesn't really sway in any direction personally, whether is be warm or analytical, to me it just seems lifeless. Almost as if it has no soul, and it's crazy because probably right near to it the M23 is probably equal in measurements or the difference is so little and definitely between the two measurements wise would be inaudible. But I do like the M23, I do not know why this is and maybe you can explain it with your expertise. Similarly, I did not like the 887 but the Q5s is my go to any time I go anywhere and I want quality music. I am sure the difference between those headphone units is a greater seperation in comparison the M23 and AHB2. But really the question is why? I dont have the answer. I even fed the damn 887 with an AKM dac to get a similar performance.

So I hope you understand the pattern here, I am definitely in no way shape or form against viewing the measurements and everything I buy is predominantly based on measurements.

I get your point that the gear will definitely make a difference, and this is why I say I never lose faith and give everything a second chance more and more times. But honestly, memory wise which is poor to me it sounded the same and clearly different gear was used each time I heard it.

On to your following paragraph, I totally agree with that. I actually tell people all the time is Amir's goal is for people not to get ripped off. I feel the same is with audioholics, erin's audio corner, and anyone who approaches everything with an objective approach. This is why I have great admiration for Amir and as stated his advice alone has saved me tons of money and made me extremely happy with my main systems performance.

Your sensible approach is extremely accurate, from my understanding the speaker or headphone itself is always going to be the bottleneck even if everything behind it is flawless. I am not sure to what level this may or may not be but it definitely makes sense cause if you push something to its upper registers you can blow that speaker or damage driver whatever it is and it actually starts to create audible issues whether or not your chain is top tier.

Oh I was definitely going to touch on vinyl etc, just as you pointed out. But I do not do vinyl/cassette and I wanted to do CD but so far from the sources I tried cannot beat my streamer. In an effort to add more fidelity I have been trying to get a decent CD player. Some say or it maybe fact, that a CD should beat digital playback and yes I do realize it too is digital.

I will definitely take a look at that information and even test it out myself. I appreciate that and your time to correspond and help me as well as others, I am just trying to provide my feedback and experience. Similarly, I am trying to do the same thing without trying to sway people into one thing or another. I try to preach in the sense that what I say as an opinion and isn't a fact but it is actually interesting and would be nice for everyone to experience that as well.

I think you can agree no matter what it is it's always nice to get both extremes of a spectrum merely for perspective.
 
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Blumlein 88

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*If anyone is confused what this ramble is all about it is stemming from the Chord M scaler review thread which may provide some more insight.

Extremely fair statements so far, I will only comment or give my thoughts on something that I may disagree with if anything there is based on what I said.

Yes, I think based on your second paragraph what you are saying is accurate. However, my rebuttal and the reason why I said the things I did in my "first" thing to preach was that even some of the cleanest units do sound great. Amir suggested the D70s when I was in search for a new AKM dac, and it's honestly by far one of the most outstanding dacs I have ever heard and measures insanely. That's why I pointed out that it's something they are doing when implementing it which basically tints the sound.

The thing that's crazy is we just had the NAD M23 reviewed by Audioholics, not sure if you got a chance to see that. But to get to the point I demo'd the M33 and I was really pleased with that setup even though I have been a skeptic on class D amps. Personally my favorite sound is darker/warmer whatever you wish to call it. This is why for me Class A is better and it may not even be because of Class A topology, I do not know. Next is tubes, or in a tie with A/B design.

I recall that somewhere in a review they said the M23 and the M33 share the same amplification, then the review came out and I just actually purchased the M23 strictly based on its objective and subjective performance. To me it sounded like all the benefits of a class D amp but with a touch of warmth/musicality.

The thing is man I really try to keep an open mind, even when I hear something and I do not like it doesn't mean I will just solidify that opinion and avoid rehearing it the next chance I get. So far there's been numerous products I have heard 3, 4, 5 times and that 5th time it was like bingo. This product and this chain together made great synergy or whatever it was and it did now sound pleasant or amazing.

I mention that the reason why I think I do not like the AHB2 is because it is so damn clean and doesn't really sway in any direction personally, whether is be warm or analytical, to me it just seems lifeless. Almost as if it has no soul, and it's crazy because probably right near to it the M23 is probably equal in measurements or the difference is so little and definitely between the two measurements wise would be inaudible. But I do like the M23, I do not know why this is and maybe you can explain it with your expertise. Similarly, I did not like the 887 but the Q5s is my go to any time I go anywhere and I want quality music. I am sure the difference between those headphone units is a greater seperation in comparison the M23 and AHB2. But really the question is why? I dont have the answer. I even fed the damn 887 with an AKM dac to get a similar performance.

So I hope you understand the pattern here, I am definitely in no way shape or form against viewing the measurements and everything I buy is predominantly based on measurements.

I get your point that the gear will definitely make a difference, and this is why I say I never lose faith and give everything a second chance more and more times. But honestly, memory wise which is poor to me it sounded the same and clearly different gear was used each time I heard it.

On to your following paragraph, I totally agree with that. I actually tell people all the time is Amir's goal is for people not to get ripped off. I feel the same is with audioholics, erin's audio corner, and anyone who approaches everything with an objective approach. This is why I have great admiration for Amir and as stated his advice alone has saved me tons of money and made me extremely happy with my main systems performance.

Your sensible approach is extremely accurate, from my understanding the speaker or headphone itself is always going to be the bottleneck even if everything behind it is flawless. I am not sure to what level this may or may not be but it definitely makes sense cause if you push something to its upper registers you can blow that speaker or damage driver whatever it is and it actually starts to create audible issues whether or not your chain is top tier.

Oh I was definitely going to touch on vinyl etc, just as you pointed out. But I do not do vinyl/cassette and I wanted to do CD but so far from the sources I tried cannot beat my streamer. In an effort to add more fidelity I have been trying to get a decent CD player. Some say or it maybe fact, that a CD should beat digital playback and yes I do realize it too is digital.

I will definitely take a look at that information and even test it out myself. I appreciate that and your time to correspond and help me as well as others, I am just trying to provide my feedback and experience. Similarly, I am trying to do the same thing without trying to sway people into one thing or another. I try to preach in the sense that what I say as an opinion and isn't a fact but it is actually interesting and would be nice for everyone to experience that as well.

I think you can agree no matter what it is it's always nice to get both extremes of a spectrum merely for perspective.
What you describe is something many of us experience. And those experiences seem quite real to the point you aren't comfortable denying them.

I could pick many examples. I'll try recording interfaces. I have a Focusrite 18i20. Not expensive, even cheap considering 8 channels of everything plus lots of bells and whistles. My impression using it for playback is the bass is just a little loose and uncontrolled. Like a ported woofer slightly underdamped with softened impact. The treble seems a bit soft and opaque. Midrange is a bit opaque and smoothed over. THD is very low at less than -110 db, and noise is not bad at something like -107 db. FR is flat.

I have an Antelope Audio device. It seems clean, clear, firm in the bass, and extended and clear in the treble. It measures a bit better than the 18i20. Then there is an RME Babyface. Seems the same as the Antelope except is seems just a tiny bit slow and like it lacks some minor additional detail the Antelope gets. It is like a very slightly smoother version of the Antelope, but not smoother in a positive sense. It measures just the tiniest bit better than the Antelope device.

Yet when I record the result of each or otherwise use it with some help blinding, I can hear no difference. I have at times two of these using them at the same time before switching between them, get a phone call or otherwise have to stop and come back. I think from what I hear I know which one is playing only to find oops that isn't the one playing it is the other one. It is surprising, disconcerting, and difficult to accept how firmly we experience differences that when we blind ourselves to which device is in use all those difference disappear like magic.

This includes hearing something new you don't have an expectation for or hearing something deciding the sound is different than you expected and everything in between. It is surprising how firmly implanted our opinion can become of a device and how it colors what we think of it forever after that initial impression. The longer you use it and compare most of the time the stronger that impression becomes.

So what are you to believe?

There is also the other end of experience with audio devices. Thinking you have switched a device, and quite clearly and unambiguously hearing a definite difference. Only to find the switch never happened. You've listened to the same device all along. So where did that difference you hear come from? Not the device because it never changed.

I think when we make choices it reinforces our investment in things. Especially when differences are real, but more than we realize even when it isn't. A related thing from when I was in college. One of my friends had this model of a sculpture he kept on his bookshelf. He spent over an hour positioning it exactly where he wanted it, to have the proper view and lighting etc. to his satisfaction. I noticed someone slightly move it once, and he claimed he knew it only was right in one spot, and took about 30 minutes to get it back "right". He was pissed it got bumped. He did the same when he once let a book slip and move it. I was pretty sure that time he put it back in a different spot. No way says he, it is right only one way and no other. He knew the difference. So a few weeks later I was studying at his place on a class we both had. I decided on a sneaky experiment. He went out to the restroom. I took a book off the shelf next to his model. I never touched it of course. When he returned I told him I'm sorry I nudged your piece there getting this book. But I know I put it back exactly. He let out a big exhale. Said it wasn't even close to right, and spent a half hour finally putting it where it belonged and he moved it from where it was. Yet it had never been moved in the first place. I think this happens a lot when evaluating audio.

So are your experiences wrong? Some differences are real, and maybe you are correct for some interaction with the other gear involved. Some of the gear you mention however should be somewhere between extremely difficult to hear or impossible. I've been there, and done that and still seem to hear those differences. I'm not sure where some of what fools us comes from in many circumstances. Yet those differences are gone as soon as I don't know what is in use.

Sometimes things are different. Tube amps I used were connected to electrostatic speakers I owned. The interaction had considerable changes in frequency response vs a solid state amp and levels of distortion or other non-linearity that made for genuine sound differences reaching my ears. I mostly liked the difference over my ESLs. I have story about series connecting amps, but I've written about it before so won't belabor the point again.

We regularly have someone show up here who disagrees with the measurement based approach. Quite common for them to say our gear isn't really good, or we don't have experience to know how to hear differences or we are poor and cannot afford the good stuff so we tell ourselves comforting stories that don't ring true. Quite a few people here are in fact very experienced and knowledgable. Many have had the experience of being subjectivists for years before learning the foibles of that approach. I myself for half my life was a subjectivist quite willing to entertain the idea there are things about sound perception we don't know, and listen to the guys making odd gear in their little company that had attention and hand crafted workmanship that resulted in much better sound. One unexpected experience or another caused us to reconsider and learn how easily we were fooled no matter how honest and well intended our efforts.
 

theREALdotnet

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@Blumlein 88 I hate your posts. By the time I get to read Internet forums I’m winding down and my brain wants to be comforted, not challenged. Then I encounter one of your (typically long) posts, and I just know that if I skip over it I’m missing out on something worthwhile…

I just re-engaged my brain to make sense of these two paragraphs, which seem to disagree with something I think I know.

I could pick many examples. I'll try recording interfaces. I have a Focusrite 18i20. Not expensive, even cheap considering 8 channels of everything plus lots of bells and whistles. My impression using it for playback is the bass is just a little loose and uncontrolled. Like a ported woofer slightly underdamped with softened impact. The treble seems a bit soft and opaque. Midrange is a bit opaque and smoothed over. THD is very low at less than -110 db, and noise is not bad at something like -107 db. FR is flat.

I have an Antelope Audio device. It seems clean, clear, firm in the bass, and extended and clear in the treble. It measures a bit better than the 18i20. Then there is an RME Babyface. Seems the same as the Antelope except is seems just a tiny bit slow and like it lacks some minor additional detail the Antelope gets. It is like a very slightly smoother version of the Antelope, but not smoother in a positive sense. It measures just the tiniest bit better than the Antelope device.

How can bass be loose or tight in a piece of low-power electronics? If the frequency response is flat and there is no appreciable distortion, how can there be a difference in the perceived bass response?

I get how bass becomes hard once we arrive at the energy conversion stage, but at the low-power signal level this should make no difference to any decent piece of electronics. After all, a range from DC to megahertz is a solved problem – ask anyone who ever designed or built an oscilloscope, even a budget one.

So, how can loose or tight bass become a perceptible issue with an audio interface? Unless that’s the point you were making, and it went over my head?
 

BDWoody

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So, how can loose or tight bass become a perceptible issue with an audio interface? Unless that’s the point you were making, and it went over my head?

I think that was his point...

We all tend to hear differences, but the question is whether that difference is real or imagined. Only way to really know is to implement some controls.
 

Blumlein 88

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@Blumlein 88 I hate your posts. By the time I get to read Internet forums I’m winding down and my brain wants to be comforted, not challenged. Then I encounter one of your (typically long) posts, and I just know that if I skip over it I’m missing out on something worthwhile…

I just re-engaged my brain to make sense of these two paragraphs, which seem to disagree with something I think I know.



How can bass be loose or tight in a piece of low-power electronics? If the frequency response is flat and there is no appreciable distortion, how can there be a difference in the perceived bass response?

I get how bass becomes hard once we arrive at the energy conversion stage, but at the low-power signal level this should make no difference to any decent piece of electronics. After all, a range from DC to megahertz is a solved problem – ask anyone who ever designed or built an oscilloscope, even a budget one.

So, how can loose or tight bass become a perceptible issue with an audio interface? Unless that’s the point you were making, and it went over my head?
BDWoody has it.

My subjective impression was of less good bass like a slightly uncontrolled woofer. And with flat response on a line level device makes no sense. When I don't know which device I'm listening to I don't hear it. It isn't real in my estimation.
 

MattHooper

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So are your experiences wrong? Some differences are real, and maybe you are correct for some interaction with the other gear involved.

That's really the crux of the matter for me, in terms of audio and everything else.

Being of a philosophical bent, I prefer to do a consistency check for things I believe (or will argue for) and before I accept someone else's claim. Reasoning relies consistency and appeal to principles. Anyone saying 'you ought to accept my argument' is asking I accept some principle on which the argument is based. And I can take that principle, apply it to all sorts of other things we accept as rational, and if the line of reasoning results in absurdities in this consistency check, then that is a big red flag. The argument fails the test of reason. Otherwise one is "thinking in a bubble" and not really caring for the rationality of the wider implications of what he is saying.

It's like being in one's own church. (Sorry, my non-religious position coming out in this example): If you ask many devoted religious folks who go to their Church on sunday if they think science is a worthwhile system of inquiry they will usually say "oh of course! Who would doubt science? It's obviously a very useful form of inquiry." Ok, so why aren't you applying scientific thought to your beliefs? "Oh, yes, science is food for other things...but it isn't pertinent for MY Belief System!" Inside Church, praying and bolstering belief in your God using a method of acknowledging the "hits" and ignoring the "misses" is just fine.
But this is what you get when you break with consistency.

Likewise you can end up in your "church" in any domain, including audio. In debates with audiophiles taking a purely subjectivist approach - a total confidence in their subjective experience for knowing the truth - they will all say that measurements, and science are wonderful things. But...and here it comes...they don't have a lot to say about My Thing! My Hobby! In audio, subjective experience is supreme!

When you point out the well known problems of bias in distorting perception and why that is a variable to be taken seriously, and why these variables are controlled for in science, e.g. medical studies etc, the reply is typically "Yes, that's all well and good, but why the heck are you talking about things like medicine or other scientific things? That's not relevant. We are talking about AUDIO, not medicine!"

The point - the consistency check - won't land. This is thinking inside one's church. I am always telling the pure subjectivists that, whatever they want to do, I don't want to pretend audio exists in some magic bubble where the relevance of everything we know about human fallibility just doesn't penetrate. I don't want to approach audio as if I'm practicing religion!

But the thing that's important to realize, I think, is that (insofar as one would disagree with the "church" thinking above) these groups of people aren't thinking this way because they are unusual or deficient. They are thinking this way because they are human. These are just different manifestations of the type of bias we are all prone to. We are good at protecting our beliefs by selectively walling them off, or not bothering to do these wider consistency checks.

Even in the camp that views itself as more scientific, you can still end up inadvertently thinking in "your own church" by not cross-checking arguments in context outside of a discussion of audio equipment. So for instance if you have an argument that relies on accepting the proposition "We Can Not Trust Our Senses" (without measurements), then that principle will just immediately fail any wider consistency check. It will make much of our success in navigating the world unintelligible, and fail to explain all ways our sense perception proves reliable and informative. Any such argument will have to be far more nuanced, and will have to hold up to wider consistency checks.

And this is the problem I have with how some have drawn the conclusion from what we know about human bias, from experiments using blind controls, from the ability of audiophiles to fool themselves etc, that THEREFORE our perception is not to be trusted, purely subjective accounts of how audio gear performs is to be dismissed as wholly unreliable, and attemps to put what we hear in to subjective language (without measurements) is worthless. This sort of extremism immediately fails all sorts of wider consistency tests - it would utterly fail to explain how people in my line of post sound production get the job done every day (we use our subjective impressions and communicate via subjective description all the time - we don't use measurements or blind testing). It fails countless other examples. It comically fails any test of pragmatism: It would be impossible to put our everyday inferences to such stringent tests, which means it would be unreasonable to conclude we can't be justified in any conclusion we draw from sharing our subjective impressions, without measurements or scientific controls to back it up. Life would be impossible.

But when I bring in these consistency checks some say "why are you talking about irrelevant things like rational inferences in cooking, or music notation, or talking about creating sound in post production? That's all irrelevant! We are Talking About Audio Equipment Here!!!"

This is, I argue, thinking in a bubble: a failure to recognize basic consistency checks on one's argument. It's born of the same human bias that allows the church goer to think consistency checks extending outside their church life are irrelevant - "how science relevant to my beliefs? I'm talking about religion and the efficacy of prayer here!" and the pure "subjectivist audiophile" to think consistency checks for how their arguments would play in the world outside audio are "irrelevant" - "I don't have to explain how my argument makes sense in the context of things like scientific research! I'm talking about evaluating Audio Gear!"

Nope. If we are being reasonable, we will be able to account for how our argument in a specific domain - e.g. audio gear - sit's coherently in the wider epistemic project in our experience. We can't wave off these consistency checks as irrelevant. Our beliefs and arguments regarding audio gear don't exist in a Magic Bubble walled off from the rest of rational thinking (or...it shouldn't, IMO).


Sometimes things are different. Tube amps I used were connected to electrostatic speakers I owned. The interaction had considerable changes in frequency response vs a solid state amp and levels of distortion or other non-linearity that made for genuine sound differences reaching my ears. I mostly liked the difference over my ESLs. I have story about series connecting amps, but I've written about it before so won't belabor the point again.

Yep.

In my view the pure subjectivist becomes too extreme in uncritically accepting the account of his, or anyone else's uncontrolled subjective impressions. That very same uncritical thinking about claims is what leads people to believe the astounding amount of crazy in the world.

On the other hand, you can go to far in the other direction where you have a hyper-skepticism about the worth of subjective accounts, and the "unreliability" of our perception.

So one has to navigate between two very real ends of the problem:

1. We have to acknowledge that our perception is not always reliable.

yet

2. It is impractical to demand that, in order to have a reasonable inference from perception, it must always be subjected to scientific controls.

As I've often argued, I attempt to navigate in between these two ends of the problem via acknowledging our confidence levels should scale to the evidence we have, and we can help scale our confidence via heuristics like "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And this would apply consistently to audio as to anything else. If my neighbor tells me he adds more salt to his chili recipe and it tasted more salty, he could be mistaken. But it's a plausible claim so I won't waste precious time requiring measurements and blind tests to accept the claim. But if he tells me he's using "homeopathic" salt - liquid with every molecule of salt removed that retains the "memory" of salt - that's an extraordinary (extremely implausible) claim, so I'll want much more rigorous evidence.

Likewise, if my audiophile pal comes back from auditioning and comparing two speakers and describes the differences he heard, I'm fine with accepting his account. Could he be wrong? Sure. But speakers do sound different, so it's entirely plausible he picked up on those real sonic differences. But if he claimed the same thing for hearing differences between USB cables...then I'll want more rigorous evidence before it would be reasonable to accept his account.

So for Blumlein 88's account above about his tube amps: I provisionally accept his account. Could he have been a victim of sighted bias? Sure! But from observing many technical discussions about tube amps between knowledgeable people, I understand it to be entirely plausible that tube amps can interact with speakers in a way that will have audible consequences, vs say a solid state amp.

On the same grounds, I seem to experience sonic differences between my tube amps and solid state amps in my system. Since this is plausible I'm ok with provisionally accepting what I "hear" though scaling my confidence levels appropriately. I won't put that forth as Strong Evidence. I will want to be intellectually consistent with myself and others, and admit "yeah, it could be in my particular case a bias effect, not a real sonic difference." And if I really want to scale up my confidence level, I'd want to listen with controls for bias. (Which I actually did for my tube preamp vs a solid state preamp).
 
Last edited:

scruffy1

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The differences in audio equipment are pretty overblown. This doesn't shock me at all.

I used to like listening in the car, which is such a compromised audio environment. Since I got a Subaru, though, I don't. It distorts too much getting above the ambient noise level on anything but newly paved roads.
maybe you need quieter tyres (or as merkans say, "tires") ?
 

Mart68

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That's really the crux of the matter for me, in terms of audio and everything else.

Being of a philosophical bent, I prefer to do a consistency check for things I believe (or will argue for) and before I accept someone else's claim. Reasoning relies consistency and appeal to principles. Anyone saying 'you ought to accept my argument' is asking I accept some principle on which the argument is based. And I can take that principle, apply it to all sorts of other things we accept as rational, and if the line of reasoning results in absurdities in this consistency check, then that is a big red flag. The argument fails the test of reason. Otherwise one is "thinking in a bubble" and not really caring for the rationality of the wider implications of what he is saying.

It's like being in one's own church. (Sorry, my non-religious position coming out in this example): If you ask many devoted religious folks who go to their Church on sunday if they think science is a worthwhile system of inquiry they will usually say "oh of course! Who would doubt science? It's obviously a very useful form of inquiry." Ok, so why aren't you applying scientific thought to your beliefs? "Oh, yes, science is food for other things...but it isn't pertinent for MY Belief System!" Inside Church, praying and bolstering belief in your God using a method of acknowledging the "hits" and ignoring the "misses" is just fine.
But this is what you get when you break with consistency.

Likewise you can end up in your "church" in any domain, including audio. In debates with audiophiles taking a purely subjectivist approach - a total confidence in their subjective experience for knowing the truth - they will all say that measurements, and science are wonderful things. But...and here it comes...they don't have a lot to say about My Thing! My Hobby! In audio, subjective experience is supreme!

When you point out the well known problems of bias in distorting perception and why that is a variable to be taken seriously, and why these variables are controlled for in science, e.g. medical studies etc, the reply is typically "Yes, that's all well and good, but why the heck are you talking about things like medicine or other scientific things? That's not relevant. We are talking about AUDIO, not medicine!"

The point - the consistency check - won't land. This is thinking inside one's church. I am always telling the pure subjectivists that, whatever they want to do, I don't want to pretend audio exists in some magic bubble where the relevance of everything we know about human fallibility just doesn't penetrate. I don't want to approach audio as if I'm practicing religion!

But the thing that's important to realize, I think, is that (insofar as one would disagree with the "church" thinking above) these groups of people aren't thinking this way because they are unusual or deficient. They are thinking this way because they are human. These are just different manifestations of the type of bias we are all prone to. We are good at protecting our beliefs by selectively walling them off, or not bothering to do these wider consistency checks.

Even in the camp that views itself as more scientific, you can still end up inadvertently thinking in "your own church" by not cross-checking arguments in context outside of a discussion of audio equipment. So for instance if you have an argument that relies on accepting the proposition "We Can Not Trust Our Senses" (without measurements), then that principle will just immediately fail any wider consistency check. It will make much of our success in navigating the world unintelligible, and fail to explain all ways our sense perception proves reliable and informative. Any such argument will have to be far more nuanced, and will have to hold up to wider consistency checks.

And this is the problem I have with how some have drawn the conclusion from what we know about human bias, from experiments using blind controls, from the ability of audiophiles to fool themselves etc, that THEREFORE our perception is not to be trusted, purely subjective accounts of how audio gear performs is to be dismissed as wholly unreliable, and attemps to put what we hear in to subjective language (without measurements) is worthless. This sort of extremism immediately fails all sorts of wider consistency tests - it would utterly fail to explain how people in my line of post sound production get the job done every day (we use our subjective impressions and communicate via subjective description all the time - we don't use measurements or blind testing). It fails countless other examples. It comically fails any test of pragmatism: It would be impossible to put our everyday inferences to such stringent tests, which means it would be unreasonable to conclude we can't be justified in any conclusion we draw from sharing our subjective impressions, without measurements or scientific controls to back it up. Life would be impossible.

But when I bring in these consistency checks some say "why are you talking about irrelevant things like rational inferences in cooking, or music notation, or talking about creating sound in post production? That's all irrelevant! We are Talking About Audio Equipment Here!!!"

This is, I argue, thinking in a bubble: a failure to recognize basic consistency checks on one's argument. It's born of the same human bias that allows the church goer to think consistency checks extending outside their church life are irrelevant - "how science relevant to my beliefs? I'm talking about religion and the efficacy of prayer here!" and the pure "subjectivist audiophile" to think consistency checks for how their arguments would play in the world outside audio are "irrelevant" - "I don't have to explain how my argument makes sense in the context of things like scientific research! I'm talking about evaluating Audio Gear!"

Nope. If we are being reasonable, we will be able to account for how our argument in a specific domain - e.g. audio gear - sit's coherently in the wider epistemic project in our experience. We can't wave off these consistency checks as irrelevant. Our beliefs and arguments regarding audio gear don't exist in a Magic Bubble walled off from the rest of rational thinking (or...it shouldn't, IMO).




Yep.

In my view the pure subjectivist becomes too extreme in uncritically accepting the account of his, or anyone else's uncontrolled subjective impressions. That very same uncritical thinking about claims is what leads people to believe the astounding amount of crazy in the world.

On the other hand, you can go to far in the other direction where you have a hyper-skepticism about the worth of subjective accounts, and the "unreliability" of our perception.

So one has to navigate between two very real ends of the problem:

1. We have to acknowledge that our perception is not always reliable.

yet

2. It is impractical to demand that, in order to have a reasonable inference from perception, it must always be subjected to scientific controls.

As I've often argued, I attempt to navigate in between these two ends of the problem via acknowledging our confidence levels should scale to the evidence we have, and we can help scale our confidence via heuristics like "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And this would apply consistently to audio as to anything else. If my neighbor tells me he adds more salt to his chili recipe and it tasted more salty, he could be mistaken. But it's a plausible claim so I won't waste precious time requiring measurements and blind tests to accept the claim. But if he tells me he's using "homeopathic" salt - liquid with every molecule of salt removed that retains the "memory" of salt - that's an extraordinary (extremely implausible) claim, so I'll want much more rigorous evidence.

Likewise, if my audiophile pal comes back from auditioning and comparing two speakers and describes the differences he heard, I'm fine with accepting his account. Could he be wrong? Sure. But speakers do sound different, so it's entirely plausible he picked up on those real sonic differences. But if he claimed the same thing for hearing differences between USB cables...then I'll want more rigorous evidence before it would be reasonable to accept his account.

So for Blumlein 88's account above about his tube amps: I provisionally accept his account. Could he have been a victim of sighted bias? Sure! But from observing many technical discussions about tube amps between knowledgeable people, I understand it to be entirely plausible that tube amps can interact with speakers in a way that will have audible consequences, vs say a solid state amp.

On the same grounds, I seem to experience sonic differences between my tube amps and solid state amps in my system. Since this is plausible I'm ok with provisionally accepting what I "hear" though scaling my confidence levels appropriately. I won't put that forth as Strong Evidence. I will want to be intellectually consistent with myself and others, and admit "yeah, it could be in my particular case a bias effect, not a real sonic difference." And if I really want to scale up my confidence level, I'd want to listen with controls for bias. (Which I actually did for my tube preamp vs a solid state preamp).
Yes, good post which aligns with my thinking on the matter.

The only difference between subjectivist and objectivist is that the objectivist accepts that his perception may be faulty.

If there's no explanation for a difference perceived there is a very high likelihood it was not real. If there is an explanation then that likelihood drops, but can never be discounted (yes, even with loudspeakers) unless controls are applied. Since applying controls is not simple, we live with the uncertainty. After all, it really does not matter so much so long as we don't go around preaching our impressions as though they were gospel.

As with your example of the friend relating his tale of the differences in USB cables. I would accept his tale at face value, he really did perceive differences. But he should ascribe the cause of those differences correctly - to faulty perception - and not trumpet his experience as somehow evidence of 'unmeasurable effects'. This is where the whole thing falls over and how others get sucked in to the same nonsense.
 

Blumlein 88

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That's really the crux of the matter for me, in terms of audio and everything else.

Being of a philosophical bent, I prefer to do a consistency check for things I believe (or will argue for) and before I accept someone else's claim. Reasoning relies consistency and appeal to principles. Anyone saying 'you ought to accept my argument' is asking I accept some principle on which the argument is based. And I can take that principle, apply it to all sorts of other things we accept as rational, and if the line of reasoning results in absurdities in this consistency check, then that is a big red flag. The argument fails the test of reason. Otherwise one is "thinking in a bubble" and not really caring for the rationality of the wider implications of what he is saying.

It's like being in one's own church. (Sorry, my non-religious position coming out in this example): If you ask many devoted religious folks who go to their Church on sunday if they think science is a worthwhile system of inquiry they will usually say "oh of course! Who would doubt science? It's obviously a very useful form of inquiry." Ok, so why aren't you applying scientific thought to your beliefs? "Oh, yes, science is food for other things...but it isn't pertinent for MY Belief System!" Inside Church, praying and bolstering belief in your God using a method of acknowledging the "hits" and ignoring the "misses" is just fine.
But this is what you get when you break with consistency.

Likewise you can end up in your "church" in any domain, including audio. In debates with audiophiles taking a purely subjectivist approach - a total confidence in their subjective experience for knowing the truth - they will all say that measurements, and science are wonderful things. But...and here it comes...they don't have a lot to say about My Thing! My Hobby! In audio, subjective experience is supreme!

When you point out the well known problems of bias in distorting perception and why that is a variable to be taken seriously, and why these variables are controlled for in science, e.g. medical studies etc, the reply is typically "Yes, that's all well and good, but why the heck are you talking about things like medicine or other scientific things? That's not relevant. We are talking about AUDIO, not medicine!"

The point - the consistency check - won't land. This is thinking inside one's church. I am always telling the pure subjectivists that, whatever they want to do, I don't want to pretend audio exists in some magic bubble where the relevance of everything we know about human fallibility just doesn't penetrate. I don't want to approach audio as if I'm practicing religion!

But the thing that's important to realize, I think, is that (insofar as one would disagree with the "church" thinking above) these groups of people aren't thinking this way because they are unusual or deficient. They are thinking this way because they are human. These are just different manifestations of the type of bias we are all prone to. We are good at protecting our beliefs by selectively walling them off, or not bothering to do these wider consistency checks.

Even in the camp that views itself as more scientific, you can still end up inadvertently thinking in "your own church" by not cross-checking arguments in context outside of a discussion of audio equipment. So for instance if you have an argument that relies on accepting the proposition "We Can Not Trust Our Senses" (without measurements), then that principle will just immediately fail any wider consistency check. It will make much of our success in navigating the world unintelligible, and fail to explain all ways our sense perception proves reliable and informative. Any such argument will have to be far more nuanced, and will have to hold up to wider consistency checks.

And this is the problem I have with how some have drawn the conclusion from what we know about human bias, from experiments using blind controls, from the ability of audiophiles to fool themselves etc, that THEREFORE our perception is not to be trusted, purely subjective accounts of how audio gear performs is to be dismissed as wholly unreliable, and attemps to put what we hear in to subjective language (without measurements) is worthless. This sort of extremism immediately fails all sorts of wider consistency tests - it would utterly fail to explain how people in my line of post sound production get the job done every day (we use our subjective impressions and communicate via subjective description all the time - we don't use measurements or blind testing). It fails countless other examples. It comically fails any test of pragmatism: It would be impossible to put our everyday inferences to such stringent tests, which means it would be unreasonable to conclude we can't be justified in any conclusion we draw from sharing our subjective impressions, without measurements or scientific controls to back it up. Life would be impossible.

But when I bring in these consistency checks some say "why are you talking about irrelevant things like rational inferences in cooking, or music notation, or talking about creating sound in post production? That's all irrelevant! We are Talking About Audio Equipment Here!!!"

This is, I argue, thinking in a bubble: a failure to recognize basic consistency checks on one's argument. It's born of the same human bias that allows the church goer to think consistency checks extending outside their church life are irrelevant - "how science relevant to my beliefs? I'm talking about religion and the efficacy of prayer here!" and the pure "subjectivist audiophile" to think consistency checks for how their arguments would play in the world outside audio are "irrelevant" - "I don't have to explain how my argument makes sense in the context of things like scientific research! I'm talking about evaluating Audio Gear!"

Nope. If we are being reasonable, we will be able to account for how our argument in a specific domain - e.g. audio gear - sit's coherently in the wider epistemic project in our experience. We can't wave off these consistency checks as irrelevant. Our beliefs and arguments regarding audio gear don't exist in a Magic Bubble walled off from the rest of rational thinking (or...it shouldn't, IMO).




Yep.

In my view the pure subjectivist becomes too extreme in uncritically accepting the account of his, or anyone else's uncontrolled subjective impressions. That very same uncritical thinking about claims is what leads people to believe the astounding amount of crazy in the world.

On the other hand, you can go to far in the other direction where you have a hyper-skepticism about the worth of subjective accounts, and the "unreliability" of our perception.

So one has to navigate between two very real ends of the problem:

1. We have to acknowledge that our perception is not always reliable.

yet

2. It is impractical to demand that, in order to have a reasonable inference from perception, it must always be subjected to scientific controls.

As I've often argued, I attempt to navigate in between these two ends of the problem via acknowledging our confidence levels should scale to the evidence we have, and we can help scale our confidence via heuristics like "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." And this would apply consistently to audio as to anything else. If my neighbor tells me he adds more salt to his chili recipe and it tasted more salty, he could be mistaken. But it's a plausible claim so I won't waste precious time requiring measurements and blind tests to accept the claim. But if he tells me he's using "homeopathic" salt - liquid with every molecule of salt removed that retains the "memory" of salt - that's an extraordinary (extremely implausible) claim, so I'll want much more rigorous evidence.

Likewise, if my audiophile pal comes back from auditioning and comparing two speakers and describes the differences he heard, I'm fine with accepting his account. Could he be wrong? Sure. But speakers do sound different, so it's entirely plausible he picked up on those real sonic differences. But if he claimed the same thing for hearing differences between USB cables...then I'll want more rigorous evidence before it would be reasonable to accept his account.

So for Blumlein 88's account above about his tube amps: I provisionally accept his account. Could he have been a victim of sighted bias? Sure! But from observing many technical discussions about tube amps between knowledgeable people, I understand it to be entirely plausible that tube amps can interact with speakers in a way that will have audible consequences, vs say a solid state amp.

On the same grounds, I seem to experience sonic differences between my tube amps and solid state amps in my system. Since this is plausible I'm ok with provisionally accepting what I "hear" though scaling my confidence levels appropriately. I won't put that forth as Strong Evidence. I will want to be intellectually consistent with myself and others, and admit "yeah, it could be in my particular case a bias effect, not a real sonic difference." And if I really want to scale up my confidence level, I'd want to listen with controls for bias. (Which I actually did for my tube preamp vs a solid state preamp).
This was an excellent well thought out post. I want to comment upon the following paragraph.

And this is the problem I have with how some have drawn the conclusion from what we know about human bias, from experiments using blind controls, from the ability of audiophiles to fool themselves etc, that THEREFORE our perception is not to be trusted, purely subjective accounts of how audio gear performs is to be dismissed as wholly unreliable, and attempts to put what we hear in to subjective language (without measurements) is worthless. This sort of extremism immediately fails all sorts of wider consistency tests - it would utterly fail to explain how people in my line of post sound production get the job done every day (we use our subjective impressions and communicate via subjective description all the time - we don't use measurements or blind testing). It fails countless other examples. It comically fails any test of pragmatism: It would be impossible to put our everyday inferences to such stringent tests, which means it would be unreasonable to conclude we can't be justified in any conclusion we draw from sharing our subjective impressions, without measurements or scientific controls to back it up. Life would be impossible.

Can I in sighted uncontrolled non-level matched listening discern a bass difference between a classic 1970's Cerwin-Vega speaker with 15 inch woofer and the bass of a Quad ESL-63 having only heard them years apart and have it be a useful generally accurate subjectively derived description? Absolutely. So proof (if I can do it) not all uncontrolled listening done subjectively is untrustworthy. This one falls into a category of me not even needing a blind test to do that so huge is the difference.

Can I do that comparing bass of an Acoustat 2 ESL and a Soundlab M3? I don't think so or at least would not be confident doing that. Get them together, match levels, let me rapidly switch I think I could do that. Now having experience with those, I could reliably tell you which is which (if I know it is one or the other) with 100% certainty for frequencies above 500 hz. Again, even if years apart, and any level that could be heard without any rigorous listening methodology. We can have our various gold standards, but sometimes good enough really is good enough.

I feel we trip over what you are discussing sometimes when someone is told blind test it or it isn't happening. Lots of blind testing is not very doable by regular audiophiles. Best is when academic research has given us some parameters and we can reach a proxy decision using measurements to inform what is possible. The other side of the coin is when people crossover from what might be or is doable in the normal use of audio gear with differences large enough they are heard with less rigor in their listening methodology and feel just as confident about things that are so similar only a careful comparison has any chance of reliable and repeatable results. In time one often convinces oneself of even smaller and odder differences being heard. Checking outside your bubble about USB or Ethernet cables sound differences is a good example. There is no rational technical way you can hear differences. It simply cannot happen unless something is malfunctioning.

I did like this from your post:

But the thing that's important to realize, I think, is that (insofar as one would disagree with the "church" thinking above) these groups of people aren't thinking this way because they are unusual or deficient. They are thinking this way because they are human.

I cannot claim to have never gotten fed up and been less than respectful to some posters. I don't think I've generally claimed they were stupid or unintelligent. One example is lots of medical doctors are audiophiles that believe things they should not. As a group medical doctors are not stupid people. I do think from those I have known, they rely on the opinions of experts in their field more than average folks. You almost have to because no one can know all there is to know about diseases. Which leaves them open to checking on who the big time experts are and trying to work off of their suggestions in their hobby of audio. There is no such thing as a Board Certified Audiophile consultant. I also think they tend to believe more than most that going ahead and spending some dough is in the end a time saver to get a good result. Plus they have above average money to spend. Combined with being very busy people it is easy to see how they end up with some weird stuff and weird beliefs in their audiophile rigs. So they are human.
 

ThatDudeThere

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Those who base decisions on measurements alone, and not ears think they are being scientific. It is actually the opposite. Since we hear with our ears, and not measuring tools, you must not leave out the most obvious measuring tool.
 

Triliza

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Ears (lots of them) were used by Dr. Toole (and others) to get us where we are today, and that was done in a scientific way (as much as that is possible). Now we know many things that allow us to draw some conclusions from measurements and data, that's for speakers, for electronics ears are needed only to enjoy the music, measurements can tell you most (near all) of the story.

As for trusting your ears, have a look at the wine, violins and what have you blind tests and the result there. Here is a simple video of something similar:

 
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