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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

tonycollinet

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I admire your optimism given how people reacted to facts and obvious non facts in the past 5 years worldwide.
I've no idea if or how this is done worldwide. Further, I'd suggest that reaction to "alternative truths" over the past 5 years, probably hasn't been carried out in the most part by people who have recently been (or who are being) educated via more updated teaching methods.
 

HarmonicTHD

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I've no idea if or how this is done worldwide. Further, I'd suggest that reaction to "alternative truths" over the past 5 years, probably hasn't been carried out in the most part by people who have recently been (or who are being) educated via more updated teaching methods.
Yeah that might be. So send them back to school. ;-)
 

Blumlein 88

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Nicely said.

We do not have to come to an agreement. This is not a negotiation either.
It would be like starting to negotiate and make concessions whether gravity exists and how much of it.
Is it okay to use 22/7ths for pi just between friends?
 

solderdude

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it is about whether one believes in measurements

For measurements to make any sense one would have to understand what (specific) measurements can and above all can not show.
Preferably not 'partly understand' or merely think they understand. This is equally dangerous as not understanding at all.

Of course you are also right that a lot of people that lets say... 'are not interested in measurements' tell more and bigger porkies and are fiercer in defending their beliefs than the ones that have some tangible evidence.

Believing is something one does when lacking profound knowledge (but thinking they have it) so one can believe cables make a difference (and in specific cases they do) and believe something is audible because they could clearly hear it without any actual proof.
On the other hand... one also can believe all one needs to know is a single number which characterizes something. Think SINAD, speaker/headphone rating number etc.

I can't say who is more 'right'.
The one picking a headphone/speaker/DAC/Amp because it has a higher rating or someone that tries some speakers/headphones/equipment and determines by ear what they find to sound 'really good'.
As with everything the truth is probably in the middle.

One can use measurements to verify operation/performance or to improve performance (room correction for instance) but incorrect measurements, while believing they were done properly, may not lead to proper or satisfactory results.
While 'winging it' based on preference will always lead to something the owner (not necessarily someone else) is content with regardless how technically proficient it is.

For setting up a studio different rules apply as that for music enjoyment in the home.
In the first case you want to work from a verified reference, in the latter case it does not matter how it measures.
 

Blumlein 88

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Well here is one statement from one infant school - so starting at the beginning of education....

I would be really surprised if this is the approach of general education for starting out in school in England. OTOH, I'm not there so cannot say otherwise, plus I hope it is the norm. Or will become the norm.
 

Spkrdctr

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Scared of being duped and misled. There are so many opinions regarding audio gear that it must be a minefield of ideas to try and walk through.
But that is because they are challenged by the most basic science ideas of life. They need to crack open a book. One thing I notice as an old duffer is that younger people in general (but not all of course) will not read anything. If it is longer than one paragraph, forget it. It is like learning by sound bite. Another one is learning from late night talk show hosts. That should be against the law as it dumbs down our society. But, I am taking the high road. If people want to be idiotic, dumb and ignorant I need to relax and let them. It is in the trying to fight the lunacy that sucks the joy out of life. I now stand on the curb (mentally) and just watch the train wrecks!
 

Spkrdctr

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How many people will listen to Kunchur because he is a credentialed scientist and even claims to be using blind testing to find out cables really do matter and so do high sample rates. Yet it is all bad information. If you don't know electronics, or signal transmission theory, how do you know he isn't credible outside his field?

I know a few people who should have or in the past did have more sense, but they are on facebook. It is nearly unbelievable some complete garbage things those people believe. Not just believe, but firmly believe all from listening to some BS artist on facebook. Trying to show them real facts is worse than changing someone's religion. It is mind blowing. Now my policy is if they learn something on facebook just don't discuss it with them.
Remember Facebook NEVER lies. It is a paragon of truth. If you are in doubt ask a fact checker. We all know a FB fact checker is never wrong.

I say that sarcastically as the fact checkers being right is about 10% in stuff I read. Often times I think the fact checkers are sound bite taught youngsters. They have no clue about what they think they are fact checking. It is appalling how bad fact checking is on FB.
 

Spkrdctr

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I think to younger people it will be quite clear that critical thinking is necessary. They have access to so much information, that it's clear that not all is correct, simply because there are so many inconsistencies.
I think the younger kids are being brainwashed. They have zero knowledge of critical thinking and buy most of what they are told hook line and sinker. That is why home schooling has become such a big deal. I wish I saw a silver lining in this situation but I don't at this time. I think the problem is that the access to information is online and usually wrong. YouTube is the biggest purveyor of rubbish. Maybe 10% of YouTube videos are factual? I have no clue how to fix the problem other than to start a new totalitarian state and I'm in charge of everything. Or, I could just be the Grand Poobah of the Universe!

Reminder: The Grand Poohbah is second to the Supreme Overlord of the Universe which is Amir's title!
 
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voodooless

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I think the younger kids are being brainwashed. They have zero knowledge of critical thinking and buy most of what they are told hook line and sinker.
Kids are always vulnerable obviously. And they are more prone to accepting whatever you tell them. But I do feel (and I cannot prove that) that the current younglings will have an easier time navigating the high seas and making sense of things. I may just be too positive...
That is why home schooling has become such a big deal.
That seems to be a highly localized thing (mostly North American I guess). Where I live, that does not happen, in fact, it's prohibited ;)
I wish I saw a silver lining in this situation but I don't at this time. I think the problem is that the access to information is online and usually wrong. YouTube is the biggest purveyor of rubbish. Maybe 10% of YouTube videos are factual?
I'd be much more worried about TikTok, to be honest.
I have no clue how to fix the problem other than to start a new totalitarian state and I'm in charge of everything.
Yeah, there is a great book about that, it's called "1984"... You can read how well that works... ;)
 

Spkrdctr

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Yeah, there is a great book about that, it's called "1984"... You can read how well that works... ;)
Yes, but it is me. Good old super nice guy Spkrdctr. You can trust me with absolute power. I will take care of all of your needs. Trust me!

OMG, I think I have watched too much YouTube. Luckily I don't do Tik Tok as it would put me in the nut house........
 

voodooless

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OMG, I think I have watched too much YouTube. Luckily I don't do Tik Tok as it would put me in the nut house........
I don’t do TikTok either, but according to YouTube it’s very scary. Make it it what you will :facepalm:;)
 

HarmonicTHD

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Yes, but it is me. Good old super nice guy Spkrdctr. You can trust me with absolute power. I will take care of all of your needs. Trust me!

OMG, I think I have watched too much YouTube. Luckily I don't do Tik Tok as it would put me in the nut house........
My crystal ball shows me you have great YT career ahead of you. :)
 

Mulder

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For measurements to make any sense one would have to understand what (specific) measurements can and above all can not show.
Preferably not 'partly understand' or merely think they understand. This is equally dangerous as not understanding at all.
..........
Believing is something one does when lacking profound knowledge (but thinking they have it) so one can believe cables make a difference (and in specific cases they do) and believe something is audible because they could clearly hear it without any actual proof. On the other hand... one also can believe all one needs to know is a single number which characterizes something. Think SINAD, speaker/headphone rating number etc.
..................
For setting up a studio different rules apply as that for music enjoyment in the home.
In the first case you want to work from a verified reference, in the latter case it does not matter how it measures.
It is easy to see that even "objectivists" do not always agree. You can see that not least in this forum. For example: Is SINAD really a good single measure of sound quality? Does it make sense to rank according to SINAD? How should IMD actually be measured? etc. But these are discussions concerning method rather than the more fundamental question of whether measurability is possible and meaningful. Most people in that type of discussion still proceed from the same basic premise, ie that there is something beyond the purely subjective. The vast majority of people who listen to music obviously don't care about this discussion. You probably have to be a bit more curious and exploratory to care. But there is one question that I think is a bit more urgent, and it concerns the fact that large parts of the HiFi industry want to get their customers to reject objectivity in favor of subjectivity. As you wrote in a previous post: "When one wants to change the world one has to change the way people think". Now HiFi is of course not exactly about changing the world, but I feel that the industry wants to influence us to consider HiFi subjectively, and that we will be drawn into a merry-go-round of eternal upgrades in the hunt for perfect audio.
 

fpitas

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It is easy to see that even "objectivists" do not always agree. You can see that not least in this forum. For example: Is SINAD really a good single measure of sound quality? Does it make sense to rank according to SINAD? How should IMD actually be measured? etc. But these are discussions concerning method rather than the more fundamental question of whether measurability is possible and meaningful. Most people in that type of discussion still proceed from the same basic premise, ie that there is something beyond the purely subjective. The vast majority of people who listen to music obviously don't care about this discussion. You probably have to be a bit more curious and exploratory to care. But there is one question that I think is a bit more urgent, and it concerns the fact that large parts of the HiFi industry want to get their customers to reject objectivity in favor of subjectivity. As you wrote in a previous post: "When one wants to change the world one has to change the way people think". Now HiFi is of course not exactly about changing the world, but I feel that the industry wants to influence us to consider HiFi subjectively, and that we will be drawn into a merry-go-round of eternal upgrades in the hunt for perfect audio.
Well, yes. But having said that, it's no different in essential nature than any sales pitch. Most salesmen want you to buy into their version of reality. Solve the problems they tell you that you have, and it just so happens they have the solution.
 

solderdude

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It is easy to see that even "objectivists" do not always agree. You can see that not least in this forum. For example: Is SINAD really a good single measure of sound quality? Does it make sense to rank according to SINAD? How should IMD actually be measured? etc. But these are discussions concerning method rather than the more fundamental question of whether measurability is possible and meaningful. Most people in that type of discussion still proceed from the same basic premise, ie that there is something beyond the purely subjective.

That all can be lead down to the level of understanding these measurements and what they can and can not show.

But there is one question that I think is a bit more urgent, and it concerns the fact that large parts of the HiFi industry want to get their customers to reject objectivity in favor of subjectivity. As you wrote in a previous post: "When one wants to change the world one has to change the way people think". Now HiFi is of course not exactly about changing the world, but I feel that the industry wants to influence us to consider HiFi subjectively, and that we will be drawn into a merry-go-round of eternal upgrades in the hunt for perfect audio.

Yep the sad truth is that manufacturers mostly care about sales and they can increase that by sending out gear to (mostly Youtube) reviewers that will speak positive and by using flowery wording and lots of other nonsense. I don't think the vast majority of manufacturers will ever change their ways. Its about sales.

For this reason it is a good thing that websites like ASR exist. It is not going to come from manufacturers and 'positively reporting' websites/channels.
 

mhardy6647

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Stumbled across this tidbit yesterday looking for something else entirely.
Thought it was worthy of sharing here. YMMV, though, of course. ;)

1663379706947.png

source: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-High-Fidelity/60s/High-Fidelity-1966-01.pdf

... and, since they mentioned it...


1663379869711.png
 

Mulder

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Well, yes. But having said that, it's no different in essential nature than any sales pitch. Most salesmen want you to buy into their version of reality. Solve the problems they tell you that you have, and it just so happens they have the solution.
This is a bit of topic, but It may be worth pointing out that what we are talking about here is a form of manipulation of the customers/buyers. In that respect - as you point out - there is nothing new or special about the HiFi industry in particular. The perfect market is defined as: a market that is structured to have no anomalies that would otherwise interfere with the best prices being obtained. Perfect information is usually included as one of the conditions for a perfect market. BUT: It is generally not a good idea to be a seller in a perfect market, because prices are driven down so low that it is quite difficult to generate a reasonable profit. Consequently, many sellers seek out less perfect markets, where they can realize higher profit levels.
 
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